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Home>Topics>>FDIC 2010 Safety Forum

FDIC 2010 Safety Forum

Thu, 13 May 2010|

Moderated by attorney Brad Pinsky, this FDIC 2010 panel featured Ron Siarnicki, Billy Goldfeder, Ray McCormack, and Walter Lewis speaking on firefighter safety.



Good afternoon. My name is -- -- stand your moderator for today's events or as some -- may call eight out we're gonna keep it peaceful. I am not a Syracuse, New York I'm a captain with a mail me it's fire department and the municipal training officer. I am also an attorney which makes me a bigger ass than most of you. So today unless you've been dead you should know all these people -- let them introduce themselves and then I'm gonna do tell you the format of how we're gonna do today we want to get a lot of your questions from the floor. But I'm gonna start my own so by candidates are -- -- gold -- could do a quick introduction. A -- illegal -- deputy chief at the level since Ohio fire department. And done a lot of stuff related to firefighters survival. And this is my idea 33 FDIC. -- -- -- -- -- I'm lieutenant with the FDNY 28 years with the FDNY. Little bit bio written for the magazine -- fire engineering for quite a few years. I want to the weekly safety column tactical safety. And I'm glad to be here today. The -- -- Louis and with an impairment equivalent of our department's slow all Lewis when you guys. A lot of good opportunities so far the fire service reported several mourn. And and -- -- candidates talk about some good -- some good topics and fires. Good afternoon my name is Ron sorry -- the executive director. Of the national -- firefighters foundation. Prior to that I served with the Prince George's County fire and emergency medical services department. And I finished -- -- fire service career there's chief -- department. So it's a pleasure to be here and it's a pleasure to be talking about. Firefighter safety. In the whole concept holds -- making the -- service better and more survivable. -- gave -- set the tone for this. -- safeties. Tough issue it's a tough issue because we want to be aggressive in what we do and we want to be safe and go home when we've done it. And how much a risk we take before the call and after the call is an important decision that the leadership needs to make. Well it's supposed to be top issue and today we should deal with the top issues. We should not today take sides that -- or discuss topics that are easy to deal with. Let's deal with a tough issues so I'm gonna start with a few topics and throw them up our panelists each -- -- not quit when -- dawn basically. But we're trying to get your questions as well. And so what I would ask is after the third topic I will let -- know that we will would like your questions please step up to the -- There are -- to -- as you would just step up stand in line. And if you want to address your questions do -- the panel generally that would be appreciated and -- each other and figure out who who should answer. So here's my first topic. I'm a volunteer -- combination department. So I take no sides on -- -- volunteer. And I know that most of the panel as a career. Background as well as some volunteer. But generally speaking we have to deal with firefight -- firefighter physical fitness. And so my question view is. How -- is too fat. How old is too old. How sick is too sick and when is enough enough. Realizing that this is not just. This is also a volunteer issue on the volunteer side we may very well lose a good portion of our membership if we are too fat -- -- holding can't do the job. So I -- you guys. Well if you can't turn the steering wheel when you're driving you to fat. The safest and that's probably a good indicator of this of. Problem. I'll chat for a minute you know -- doctors can determine whether or not you're capable based upon existing standards. I think at some point when you get too old it's it's a determination between the fitness end -- it and you know what's important to you -- I think all of us will look to keep gonna fires forever but at some point you go beyond the part where -- -- value. And particularly addressing the volunteer issue maybe there's other roles but you know we see many of -- -- can certainly I certainly Enron's board of directors as well. We see a significant amount of firefighters who quote die in the line of duty and I'm not being disrespectful. In a 79 years old that the fire scene well you probably gonna -- soon anyway -- not be in me. But you know at that point you know I know when I hit seven in and that's part time. And you know maybe not getting -- 3:30 in the morning for an auto accidents -- -- nine years old. Needs to be reconsidered you know you get to a certain age. And I don't know what she -- -- too sick but I can tell you all four of us appear pretty Perkins sick. Not physically -- -- -- -- backgrounds reflects that I'm sure. But you know it. And we and -- -- and a second what we. The volunteers she's itself when I was chief of the county years ago. Have a thousand volunteers in I was able to put together a plan to get or volunteers. To get annual physicals we -- entry level physicals but I wanted to do something -- And we got buying until it got to the county administrator and health director in those folks. And he said you know we'd rather not do that right now because when we start the first line of base physicals -- gonna find. Ten or fifteen cancer firefighters are gonna find 2030 heart and -- -- that -- workers' comp. So it does the answer was letting go and if something happens to one we'd rather do that -- have to and come of that expense. So we can't be -- even I think all of us have a reputation appear for being really gung ho and loving this job. But we can't be -- -- -- effect forget about the fact that money has a lot to do with the sometimes unfortunately. But it really does so anyway fat old and sick. I think -- -- But I would jump and -- them. Thing you know the toughest -- for our community. Especially in a volunteer community -- community. Is is the citizens accepting a certain level. Response. And with the foundation -- and one of the things that I have to do is is. Make the final recommendation tour or for every single firefighter fatalities -- -- home alone and -- And so I've read every case jacket and the seventy Susan action has -- older than men that have detonated them Pittsburgh. But the problem is that we have communities that accept the fact that the primary driver. A local volunteer fire department lives three doors down. May be have been in -- -- of our department their entire life and maybe 72 years old or one case night. But. You know that's what that community -- is -- -- doesn't make it right. But that's with the communities is okay and I think that's where we as our service need to tell that story that that isn't. What's best for all of us. Because -- that crew. Depending upon net seventy year old -- eight year old or whoever is driving who has that part of tech behind the wheel was known -- everybody on -- -- It hasn't done the person called -- went for the -- In the very beginning. Hasn't done anything to help them but -- another -- situation along the same time. That's of that has to be addressed in this as well someone of that factor of what communities are willing to accept. As their local protection from where they love and you get into dollars and it -- funding and all those other elements. But what we can't leave that piece of the equation now. -- -- -- -- Looking at leaving the fire service is a difficult decision and of course it is an individual determination and everyone -- -- -- But it's always best to leave early and that they too late. We have to realize our capabilities. And our limitations. As for being sick not sure what that means exactly. But. We want to keep our help wall we're on the job and we also want to keep it after we leave I think the compliance of air management and things like that and proper PP is gonna go a long way to healthy retirement when you do make that decision to leave so. Where -- stuff. Don't stay forever. If there is life after the -- Service. But. -- all three of them -- present and going to. Iran's -- position as far as the line -- got three doors down. To be the driver community must take responsibility for themselves I don't -- individual -- do their job. But also for the -- protecting when good is he if he has a heart attack behind the wheel. Destroys the apparatus does get the emergency and at worst picks -- somebody else. So there's a point where they got -- say enough is enough. Smaller talents you have to rely on who will do the job. Sometimes you're limited trying to keep people each -- that's the case. Sometimes you gotta take which can get into got a -- -- are I think the chiefs have a responsibility. To dictate what's yes and what's now. My first years -- fire service -- volunteer. We had a -- that were dispatched this that was his best opportunity to be involved. Give him on the road would have been -- giant liability. Twenty years later the -- still alive. He's the -- But he's not functional but so there's a difference. What seeking what's too fat. Doctors have their capabilities of search and once again the brown mark on the T shirt from the stand well that's a good indicator. When you have to get your bunker -- -- twice a year and that's an indicator. -- it also was twisty skinny I mean there's some parameters there's no perfect 500 is a different size and variety in this room. And each one of us does as best we can't we could always do little matter I I certainly feel like -- but that's a -- we should all strive for. As far as the sick certainly the 15100. Today. Such -- the -- 15100 addresses that doctors have their -- DO TV and one of the best ones. The -- -- -- fact that certainly put yourself and also your comrades risk. We've had several folks pulled off duty put on what's called heavy duty as a joke. But because they're too -- it's not safe event and if they become a problem -- -- -- who does that benefit. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Because that certainly is a big issue involved here service. -- -- -- -- -- Crank it up and yeah. Well. -- it's. Certain rules were written everything I have. Okay. So they -- I ask your opinion if it's. Strippers should be in the fire service we have a video on and it. -- lesser invention out -- every topic. In this city of Syracuse a few years ago to firefighters fell through -- roof which they were -- venting. They were not wearing a CPA. So the issue came not should we be worried SE BA -- a -- -- You need to be wearing SE VA on -- roof obviously. Not only to smoke hazard if you were. If that was a collapse. You fell in your best chance of survival is to have that they receive the -- on and the hood and the helmet and everything else is supposed to be wearing. You know firefighting like football. They they don't went to a professional football players only -- -- -- on the sidelines where. So. We're professionals whether won't -- paid. Where you stuff get yourself covered and then you ready for anything should happen if you really didn't need it so what it's okay he -- very. If you're on a router probably I think you probably bats and probably got smoke probably got smoked Hollywood got that much -- because that was the case. That's will be in the atmosphere continuously. Some -- be an exception. However -- the roof SE BA -- That's 35 pass it limits -- -- it limits my vision it makes it a little bit more restrictive for me to get around. -- -- -- -- Excuses. But the best line is what's gonna have -- -- don't -- You fall through the roof and everybody in Phoenix video firefighters used -- -- -- Joan felt for the -- the other stores save on because they give in place to gentlemen welcome here today. Safe and sound. -- not learn this stuff who knows the outcome of that probably a couple of these funerals would have been the right kind of they'll -- funerals was -- -- then contributing their own demise. But not have a tax on so fortunately they had the right circumstances going -- that. -- For going up on the roof. Go port and -- packed to the right thing. And if if if you're -- unbalanced if you're comfortable in the united training enough. He has spent more time on roofs -- Indian ask whether to do drove to our whatever. She become more comfortable with a what you see is to see some deposit don't train months and months of -- time. -- on balance that the SE BA or some compliment you know dilemma. If you do enough overtime if you where you -- -- a regular basis that is -- before through. Its all over me you've heard a hundred times firefighters. -- in any taken as hot gases and had a mask on you don't wanna go -- that. And you know they will talk about smoke later -- you know. Has no genetic connection to parkinson's who's been diagnosed with -- parkinson's. And he's targeting at the crap that he breathe in the last thirty some years. And I think all of us a piano guys who you know a quick hit -- inside -- an -- stuff. And all of us as well. It's different today the stuff that you young guys and gals -- is not what was. In the old videos you watch from the old days this is so nasty (%expletive). This is stuff put out by the petrochemical industry the carpeting the -- the -- sofas and that's -- guessing cyanide. You don't get courts with -- event on the roof whoever else you gotta protect yourself. -- Absolutely and I think that that the comment that that -- it is. All the equipment. The whole ensembles designed to work together to protect you and that's the whole mountain where everything that you having your -- Because it provides that added protection when you are doing your job and you do -- -- -- Something goes goes -- it's not privacy man was lemon clothes from movement. And we've we've seen time and time again unfortunately skin doesn't it will -- And if you happen to burn -- a suggestion is. Make you see the world differently. I -- is loaded question but we -- lot of younger firefighters here. I've been doing this for about fifteen years. And look around I got people look like -- can do it for about two. We see. -- example. But we're teaching me something and it doesn't seem right I know -- -- I talked about this the fires out. -- smoke proposal walls. Why do we really -- SE BA during overall. And say whatever you want. Everyone here knows what's gonna be set but you don't wear. What are we gonna do to get people to were arrested BA during overhaul. So weakness leadership lieutenant to captain of the Boston chief who's run in the -- what -- policy enforce a policy. And you don't wanna argue -- -- you guys if there at the point where they don't understand what they are aware that mr. overhaul. Then you know maybe you should have taken a test would be in -- voices in from lieutenant on up. So did you tell him to do things they don't want to do it's not over all of -- it's not a democracy. So we're not we're in a master and overall you gotta understand in some cases. The worst smokers during overhaul when you've got a good working fire a lot of that fire and he is burn off some of those carcinogens. Which you knock it down but -- crap is still smoldering. You get incredible amounts of just poison that's been introduced to -- -- So I mean I can -- the organization I work with which is sort of a collaborative with five other -- of parts -- 6400 firefighters organization. We have a mandatory -- rule and only command makes a decision when you take you mask off the original take you mask off we didn't ask you wouldn't vote on it. We didn't say you know let's discuss this don't take you -- Mascoll. It's that simple. We have to sometimes protect firefighters from themselves. I would. Say that. I see a lot of young firefighters actually. Wearing a mask -- compliant I don't think I think if you trained firefighters correctly. And you enlighten them as to the dangers and the risks of noncompliance. Plus. You know. Not everybody wants to be doing that anyway. The mask is one Philly areas clear obviously. The worst small sometimes is during all all the problem is he that you can actually ingested its not -- bothering you so much. Then that's where the damage is done you get a FaceBook. Black black -- you know you put your mask on it's when it's not so great that's where people get -- that is false sense of nothing's gonna happen what like anything else one little feet. On top of another one over Korea heads up after -- -- And I think of the Senate and actually I think about saying actually the way their practice so we -- have some sort of controversy. But I have to be the same sentiment it doesn't cost anything actually is able to -- -- air -- and -- court. Personally not. Rudy paid if you don't. You know you don't worry we're actually gonna -- if you don't worry -- Com Douglas -- lost good friends here not too long ago from cancer and if nothing else it reinforces the reason -- -- -- -- -- taxes especially -- -- department. And if guys -- because -- the education from years past of guys changing out cycling out getting away from the olds. We'll -- not when you accidentally actually have to so fortunately got to be under fire services certainly -- the idea. Remaining healthy through injury time. -- limitation of the work the entire. Collection companies taken me stop and have to do the right thing it and -- doesn't seem like it's an option. How how many -- the audience a show of hands know or knew a firefighter with cancer. -- -- -- It's a big deal if if every state offered presumption. And and the -- accepted presumption is a line of duty death. We have about a thousand more firefighter line of duty deaths each year. She -- just I agree with everything that that's -- settlement and that part of responsibility. The entire organization. Is two to. Train on using the equipment to insure the policy written policies in place but also to ensure that there -- an excellent vision. And in letting someone get away with something related it is not awareness of -- -- nation. The toughest part for any officers. Is being tested to see how much they able line. I think it's critical component. Figuring out where -- pork it is where your lines and is that extra responsibility. And -- penalize people to do not. And send a clear message about leading by example. It. That this is that the best thing for all laws and therefore -- premium brands from our operation. -- -- you one more before we open up questions. As an attorney ever present a lot of -- -- unions. And want to be problems. My clients are now facing these municipalities come to -- and say I know he's to have a minimum staffing spot because they determined that five safe. But a few years ago we can only. Afford four minor engine -- we're only gonna have for. An hour. It's very prevalent but I say you have got to -- back to three -- -- -- anymore we need three on your engine. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- So what do you say to department's. Career staff unions municipalities and our. That the minimum staffing is being obliterated. -- Are you quite yet -- and providing fire protection. The far departments like your insurance policy you. Let's get what you pay for there's volunteer career and talks -- -- -- we career in your case but staff actually plus volunteer fire service as well. And in do you go home in east side with you spouse you're gonna cut back on your insurance. Save some money what you do what is your gambling that enough -- hat. And odds are -- -- comfortable. Over time it won't happen but eventually met. That's what the politicians in the city managers is doing right now to fire service. Has it taken a gamble -- this is. How -- of this morning. A lot of don't have a lot of money issues but they're taking advantage of the economy now added to get back at us or whatever that nonsense is. There's a direct and measurable core relation between our ability to fight fires and to grab people and save their lives. And -- I mean it it's measurable and you go back to this Sperry Rand report a million years ago -- you go. To the does Dallas I think report has been somebody -- studies. That we know that so if you in the communities you representing brand new and I've had this discussion many times. If the fire department is gone in with two people on an agent to people latter. But they've got a thirty firefighter fire they need to make it clear up front to the mayor to the city we can't do that anymore. We're getting -- on it or whatever now we get there and and maybe people inside were probably gonna take those risk is that's where we are and we're taking it -- -- risks. Because of the politicians -- the budget you know being played with. The mayor it was that the -- it was a -- right this morning of Indianapolis of that public safety is number one I -- to the fire chief -- always -- that the may get the east. He definitely feels he's very serious about it -- a lot of politicians especially communities with a is not a lot of fires to get comfortable. But less staffing the less ability you have to get what are not far less ability to have chance to search get people out and the fire would get -- -- And and I'm not saying he knew. Okay just for some -- for numerous reasons right now nationally we get destroyed on the staffing issue. And you know it it. It's it's gonna affect firefighters because we're gonna continue to try to do more with less. But it's really gonna affect the people who allow these politicians. To make the decisions to cut back -- there. So connect to local -- but I know at least my friends appeared to feel the same. -- You get the fire department paid for problem is you don't. Put the money towards it we're not gonna really be able do as -- we should do. The staffing issue huge problem major problem. One of the ways we trying to come back courses we have to reevaluate. Our capabilities. Do we are we still able to stretch -- hose line -- -- -- couple people. We have to examine that when you do take that hit. When the gavel has been -- literary that you go down a firefighter on your apparatus. You're gonna have to also do some modifications. And that's saying you can do the work of another person that's difficult. Will try and that's what they -- who. But we also have to reevaluate. -- tactics. It's not just that we lost the person on engine today and we're gonna operate the same way that's -- and work. So alongside that the fire department is burdened with less people are also burdened with figured out tactics that'll work in this new environment. And when we don't adapt our tactics that's when we're really run into trouble with less people. And it's just really it's a shame. But nobody thinks you're gonna have fire that's problem they're afraid of crime but denied a free fire. Me so. Police force staffing by the police department alleged pursuit of -- -- -- stuff. Always been -- -- for a great fire service dealers we're very engine come up with better ideas be able to make more than John happen. It just -- with a -- is gonna break came back and that point is now. Not five years from now it's now actually it's couple years past. Recently the only to fire departments looking to cut 46 positions roughly 10% of its workforce. Much like every other part of the United States because of budgetary woes because the financial crisis because of all kinds of reasons. A union president so well on the news you can kind of see income -- back -- horse and carriage if you want to but don't realize. So when you have a fire we will not be -- to take care. -- the American public needs to know that. Maybe we need advertise with -- -- -- funding with benefits us finding where it's coming from congress and some of it right. So some of the easy out -- nationally so that people understand what they're paying for what they're losing. By what they're not. -- -- -- Losing firefighters off -- truck is going to get us killed and -- for sure killed. Because we'll do protective measures to take care of ourselves but the people in the house as we won't be able to go get. And why are we in this business. To see him. And these people don't care. And unfortunately might have to look for another job just by bulldozers and wrecking balls -- that -- Limit the fire damaged by the spread knocking down -- next door and call -- that. Because we're cut to a point where we can't be effective but worried about safety -- about haven't firefighters over operate and extend themselves. To into I was designed advocated by I have to I have seen -- -- -- To get more firefighters on -- legacy -- -- on operation two guys outside to protect us as we go inside. Which -- he retired because of -- into up. -- -- -- Which when you fire departments they hired -- -- it to -- -- -- -- -- -- hands. How many guys change policies and your partner because you nineteen -- -- destruction to more people -- well. I'm Kent is -- a good thing for us to have people outside help assault on getting -- absolutely. Does that tie our hands and we have to victim living close range when it's probable -- -- -- department cut the policy to change that we can even attempt to grant. Because we punished for that. It bit because cyclical and its related. Money runs everything unfortunately. But we have to its advertising American public you can get what you pay for British Open to people in -- will -- spectators helping you watch the fire. It leads to that earlier comment about the community. Setting the global risk they wanted to say based on the resource -- -- -- provide. I think that the problem is where -- -- in his column quandary of reduce staffing levels whether it's career policy look at some volunteer departments and it cut. You know -- point people that that's that's entire force that are protected. Unfairly. Large community or. Career department's mine and Prince George's County when I was the chief there we are well over almost 800 career -- student in the 600 range. And that's just nine here's. What has happened though is we have to do was protect ourselves while going through this battle zone. And that means Paula more units getting more bodies on the scene. And you know have I heard somebody -- you know there's only that the staffing levels to wanna fire truck we'll keep calling our trips to you get forty people there. And if Iran fire trucks haul mutual aid could remove an early if that's what the scene and that's what DePaul and you get a new justices Alley parking apps. Absolutely but but also -- and and that goes to the point that was just made. Then that that the news media shows up and -- wider to have to have -- fire trucks that are well we needed forty people to fight this fire and incidentally we can get. So there are ways to tell your story. And depending upon which are PO policy might be involved in -- that discussion today or over kid but -- external plays -- tell your story. But if you need a valley parker for all the fire trucks because -- -- -- -- what you need bodies. That sends a clear signal to your community. And that there's a problem. The trouble that is how many people of our house within a mile of their house. In -- of the -- and mama and mama. So getting those units there hurry from a quick dispatch from getting this point it's -- to half hour before they get there. At that point -- -- -- some of the flight and it. We poachers and that's the story itself does so explain -- -- the public you know for years ago I was going to offer more staffing. Spry twenty years ago now -- city manager said to me don't hold up and he did babies in other words don't get emotional. Who would -- television council don't wanna hear that anymore and maybe start to think and -- Actually no kidding and FDIC sat down with Jim -- talking Tom Brennan. And -- and enacting one of those famous bar napkin discussions and they'll be try to model and it's very measurable Lotta Lotta times you go -- say we need more staff we -- a -- Let me ask you how many more in the -- hard answer you understand that almost every building -- type of building -- -- district. May require different staffing. And easily edit dwelling fires at a 900 square foot dwelling on -- -- was it at 111000 square foot dwelling. What we would trust wood frame and -- 900 area. You've got to actually go out you can -- -- talk in numbers. And convert those numbers and dollars people are more apt to understand. You just 85 people on an edge of point oh -- on his cause cause. But if you take a house just quickly thousand square for you figure out the -- -- calculation. -- three -- for the fight need at least three firefighters and each street unique street managed sykora line. He need a couple firefighters searched the floor eating a couple firefighters -- you need to bosses you need to wrap editor at this twenty firefighters. That's 4000 square foot single story failing a single story -- single family. Were different so if you're going in -- -- less than twenty on your smallest house. You have a problem lying in wait. -- the words it's predictable. That you will not have enough firefighters at some point. To deal with that fire what happens -- you get a -- contents out we knocked down. Have a small fire -- -- we not -- that she gained confidence. But it's a false confidence is what do you pull up and his two kids in that house and you get three people -- -- -- that's it. -- a measure this stuff that. Never amazes me that the first person and cut your budget the first person -- -- sorry show up somebody -- I was the mayor the council people and they do is say we don't want to hear fire fire safety don't keep screaming at the community because we don't want here. And I agree that you debt I would urge that you do need to do get you do need to get out screaming need to let your public note that in fact. -- -- -- risking lives. And the chiefs and the commissioners to no different than a speaker said this morning have got -- and we understand you have to save your job to some point. But they're -- chiefs in the last couple months throughout this country that is stood up and said we can't operate like this. She's have to be honest. Kudos to those -- you're with the kudos to those -- get what you read it -- whatever it was just one the other day. We're cutting our staffing but it won't affect public safety (%expletive) how -- not affect public safety. It does that we can prove it would numbers. Finally got people in your volunteers. -- -- -- My mayor said the other day said there we've got the training by GE keep -- -- got a 22 year old engine just need replacing for the last 510 years. We -- other equipment. However Clinton doesn't work or truck is taking 30000 dollars repair every year that doesn't work we need money we need help we need equipment. It's not gonna you're -- budget and the mayor says -- lot. The volunteers are gonna show up no matter what I do. Many years ago. I had deep religion Gary -- Role as their journey to. They walked out of their village when the mayor said you're gonna show up no matter what I duty. -- -- -- writers generally can't strike. Volunteer firefighters. You can show up for not -- up but now I wanna turn to question. Now we're not talking minimum staffing were just talking unfair conditions. That equipment whatever it is. How much do volunteer. Fire departments -- have to take because most people believe you're just gonna show what no matter what. Those people -- it's. That's what they think that those people -- ratings because. As a Baltimore I'll start off. We had that same argument accountants on manager didn't like fire chief. It is is it purely personal politics not -- city versus -- politics. The guy wouldn't -- us -- -- -- we couldn't get a better equipment. We sort of losing volunteers and actually got -- -- to stuff the brush stroke or an engine and the total -- -- it's gonna cost you money immediately get more people there. That money came from mutual aid agreements from the -- extortion charge them. To respond in its -- time. After a while. The money so you get put back in the budget. When it comes in my personal safety on and give up my time for training. For the hours needed. For the calls -- -- to my family. And somebody not supporting and pulling -- you directly the point there. The chief toward the city manager with a town manager it's not gonna give us is what we need at some point unfortunately I would imagine some -- you would say it's not worth it. While you're protecting your home your protecting your neighbors are below the community continue to go. But at some point everybody has -- reaching a point and and some folks may have reached it will be close to. You you -- it was pouring the firefighters. We don't mean I can't imagine taken that. And and you know as a model that is neck and show you on -- Quinn who would cost -- that fire department. And I don't think I hear stories like that I often think there's got to be more to it this history his brother in law's sister is involved there. Some somewhere. Facing him when my community's really that's I guess -- -- way we won't go mutually of those guys while those bastards. Forty years ago -- -- to somebody sister -- -- you know coma. -- up let's do this. If not I'd like invite people want duty microphones. And I know people come up and I'll keep uplifting topics I let my guess people to come -- to -- -- On the I want had asked this so if anyone has a controversial. Topic that's gonna create a lot of problems and yelling and screaming if you -- got ahead of everybody else that the Mike that would be good. So please if you I had something come up we'll -- lancer. -- poses questions ability honestly today. Com controversy over. Pretty -- particularly yesterday particular today. The fears. That. Hadn't. Consciously. While people operate far. Would appear. I don't policy -- it is -- let's throw out what we talked about right -- said that. You're commissioner or some commissioners somewhere. That -- and turn it actually pretty. During is that you know this New York State -- require. Get fit tested yet -- files -- he had a beard now okay. So these commissioners decided. But that they were gonna override New Year's state law. Let's like -- -- on the new state -- -- override the speed limit on the to do night he eventually mitigate caught. So you wanna finish up but that was when it's -- the -- another district not far from -- same thing the commission said we're gonna let the guys you can. He can't allow them do so a lot of -- right. And in that -- he is what you do is -- -- -- safety officer William Hathaway company content mail while. This -- I don't know he's got a good rates. If you have had turned. Honestly don't -- you go home. I was ultimately achieve occupancy. Is going to be asked him what electrical and does the -- war. You'll love these guys operate normally that -- violation. You know nineteen and thirty. And you get it yet again -- -- family issues going on their prize to an extent -- -- bread and and I think you can verify this. The New York the commissioners have apps we know fire ground authority no operational authority they're strictly administrators. So -- -- elected volunteer fire chief. Basically is having enough function under some rules that there is bosses have decided to break. You got a problem. Okay and and -- chiefs got a real problem and honestly I'm joking but I think the answer is another opinion from another attorney. That that attorney. Is putting your commissioners. And not box and you chief. So the chief could probably say you know what the commission CF -- -- -- When -- a command of fire not put its -- -- Chevy mascot. And you can have a beard and -- that's how I would deal with it and an -- trouble they'd be a problem. If you call to the office but you know you can override a law just as your commission. Yes it just seemed like the chief that allows the periods that -- department eight allows -- responsive department -- fire. Part of he has mutually agreement with all the surrounding agencies -- supposed to provide -- assistance -- -- yourself -- a couple of -- -- Iran could capable people may have to deal that circumstances the time if necessary. Delegate jobs to that person -- people that have beards hopefully the wrong man. That have. Gone out there. -- We're gonna position so that they're operating where they may not happen -- operator position. As I see him assistance so forth. But once that calls only and dealing with -- right then to understand and listen I can't -- -- -- and -- you put new position that I cannot function. State law says this. We will have to excluded from mutually agreement and so forth that means we don't go do you guys and vice verse until problems -- the guys want -- shave his beard. I know a couple folks that -- dedicated to their beards so much to give up the fire department job they enjoyed -- but. For their own safety -- help. Martin now unfortunately gentlemen are -- If you were skip over them once or twice with work and jobs I think -- get their attention. -- -- -- defense is you know pet is gonna say. The last time I got fit tested. The the Fella that put the straps on the mask was like -- one more mention in my head and knocked upon request just -- any -- They've really come up with a new be it style doesn't involve in the C overdose but I can't speak to that we don't we don't have that policy were not allowed to have a beer so. -- yet when you allowed years you're not putting most -- -- was Mike here's my issue you know it's not. It's clearly not it's you're gonna take a breath that's gonna put you down we got going to see so we're the lawyers should go that has. It's not all about you. Like hello opportunities. -- from a small hormones -- Basically all -- apartment just ball. Six do you own custom fire apparatus and elected not with the air packs in the camp -- But to put them in a encampment where the crew was simple. Take proper look at each other. Get a proper equipment and this -- Clinton versus. -- and the fire care. CEO we're not trying to put on there questions you. Chief I think chief Bruce C kicked them off years ago Phoenix obviously you'll hear from him this right here that's okay I don't know that I agree with. So I respect your decision to do that Bruno would called the coming period. Firefighters get to the father worked up they got to go outside but the economics and come down to -- -- the fire. I'd rather honestly in -- 1% times when we have a fire we've got people inside any of my firefighters in as quick as possible. Get those people out and there is probably you know you by the Williams thirty seconds two minutes and again I appreciate that I'm not. I'm not convinced that that's the way to do it a lot of times he did it because members would wear their seat belts. There you -- years ago capital -- yes. Yeah we're gonna we're not yet what can you were single that put on your pregnancies -- which -- -- on which she also you can I got to see again. I do okay I thought well you first perhaps on -- -- On -- move -- -- you can do the I mean you really do at. You -- you can put -- you can put years tank on you know the shoulder straps and what you -- first my seatbelt the national distress. You do it you lose some but I also -- years ago. -- the design of the apparatus and any FT and one member would -- -- well the the tanks were kept in a compartment. Because the seats weren't designed that way. Years ago. So we didn't think it was that big a deal -- he said that was -- great -- to do quick sides of would you gloves on whatever it was but we've evolved past that now and I think it's good to have you pack. Accessible while you while you're going to the scene. And you shouldn't take that is as we speak for myself we're not saying you're wrong I've not had the -- we haven't done -- -- place. We haven't tried it we pretty clear our members it is no discussion -- seatbelts he had no choice. -- again we're not mention the opinion you know we see fell. But. The idea put amendment and in the compartment you know it it certainly out there and I know some chiefs -- doing what why did you do achieve. Here. Primary reasons one is. We do allow volunteers respond to calls. Hoaxes and of course OK yeah program -- I'll always -- -- -- Rather than worrying about -- -- is there -- active. -- who -- tape we put them -- a candidate. And are -- option to -- here. If you wear this when you hear this flashlight and a problem Lauren look like right Simon -- -- -- us us. Two it was -- you really. -- Brazilian. It was organ foresee us. Owners it is almost generally -- site. And I would say that's part of that is the uniqueness of the fire service does every community approaches their problems differently. Far from that standpoint. That -- reality is and you were talking about that inning hits that plays that -- -- buckled in with a vehicle starts movement. Since you're getting dressed before you get on however that. Scenario for your community is established. The critical pieces is that that you seated and buckled in before you start out door. So many times we've seen firefighters' uniforms. That are -- then there's the whole the whole piece of tracking how many one Judy just a car. In vehicle accidents as result of just -- learn a seat belt and her people did it take to seek a pledge to make a commitment to be strapped in. Before they could hit the road but there is there's a lot of pieces of that talk about this though where you know SBA's -- -- -- -- Battle on in the seat belt -- in place. There -- some design work in war with the apparatus industry look at the whole -- are temptation for -- remembers riding. Seat design seat belt lines there's there's a whole bunch of stuff going on that. Bottom line is instilling the policy in place that you wouldn't -- -- and I got to have heard a lot of different excuses along the way. And in just that the -- -- -- the foundation and had a firefighters tell me that. It couldn't tell the difference between his seat belt in the SE VA harness strap and -- -- then maybe you shouldn't be in this business if -- can't tell the difference you know but it's an excuse. And and yes. Time is important but it goes back to the original round of questions. Taken as complex seconds the ball all -- -- better. Then and not and then getting killed or seriously injured and taken a whole unit now because you've had an accident. Or someone has been injured room -- -- -- make a lot of assumptions. To -- -- a deeper into 800 megahertz radio we assume you know how to use it but it -- so much about that we really don't -- need to do drill. Send -- -- seat -- you get a new probing you firehouse. He spent time you know when you're doing impact training also teach about paper the mask I put the SE felt you know in in the camp -- -- -- -- -- make -- drill out of -- But and it it if you think like the chief. From Carolina -- maybe it is better few department keep outside truck. -- -- -- a lot of things -- -- -- -- fantastic ideas. In this case they'll have to disagree with them. The source Kerry in the -- compartments it seems like the compartment or the head. Could have been used to carry the air -- -- that compartment space is needed for other stuff maybe it's not opens which carry with -- B units are. Habitat would better package assignments he has -- what tools you'll take what you jobs and then falls back to the -- initiatives. Positions -- -- -- as the units as the members show up. As far as -- on the scene with. A fully staffed and those guys that are at the firehouse drilling in the call comes and or if -- department with full staffing and of course that and so forth. Usually on the scene strongly -- in the seat belt trying to make sure my guys currency ultimately call that they can play the same as many departments. And now but with getting him. -- -- -- So this -- built upon a last little bit of this scene see bill comes off. -- -- that wasn't doing my size and look at the structure hopefully we don't crash in the last fifty feet. But if necessary my seatbelt on just as dangerous of the spot. As we take a look in the seat belt comes off in the structure right there they go on the shoulder and pop Odyssey that compound times talking about. The -- sorry on my back because let's put it on there and commodity truck. A got a chance to finish get dressed in my size -- in my walk around. Around and go into another compartment and start the process of getting dressed and three quarters await them. Because that couple circumstances you careers facilities there waiting for you to scream about that came in the response time. We put the model on the side of our truck. When seconds count. We try to shave time. In some cases maybe because we know yes they're packed inside the -- we're gonna drive faster. We're take chances of action so we know we're prepared -- gets thrown into the position that we want it to the scene the way we want. Maybe wants it has changed is the same so it's kind of the wishy washy answer. Sorry. When I prefer to have -- I I show -- hands how many departments here. Do not do not having written policy that requires all firefighters wear their seat belts. Everyone -- you as a written policy that requires that she felt. Who's got the right reasons wants wants gotten her -- -- Next question please. I don't even Kentucky. My question is. In regards to train workers and things and we you bring -- -- word. Or whether we're doing it and requires structure -- -- -- building. Restricted and we are. Hey how's that this -- things. -- -- Unfortunately we don't get a lot of fires are who does you know so. How do we -- then it is real life experiences on what -- When they actually go to real infrastructure are what's burning -- things. Unfortunately from fourteen -- three -- For fourteen -- three being established as a lot of. It's requirement and some states legislation state of Florida got the legislation -- usually on the -- on the panel. Put it. The idea is to get that new recruit. Graduated to a position -- they understand the fires which look like hopefully when the gun fire department they know what that fire looks like the flash of the Canon offers its role. But nothing beats a house fire -- And -- structure hands down. Is the best opportunity we can use it I don't think we don't have enough how many people here he's acquired -- for life -- In my opinion not enough there's -- -- hands but not enough it's not your fault. We would love to have heavy structure getting torn down to have to pass through the fire department's hands and given the option to work and instruction. In that case here -- -- they still offer pretty good fire is still often -- ratification heat and smoke. They still turn a different color when people want -- -- they still operate like five because it is far but the fire doesn't know you're training. So you can't act as though you're gonna do something Willy Nilly -- setting -- and some crazy way you gotta be responsible. And that's what works against the -- services unit acquired our structures. In that we sometimes take -- too far those guys are the ones -- hurt us. But the burn building is great to start with but I would definitely -- using it -- acquired structure. You can't necessarily and other stuff to it North Carolina for a little while we're allowed to use diesel fuel and got a little bit -- a hand that was terminated. Pallets -- straws all -- -- according fortunate few requirement. As long as you know you have been known burning characteristics of the material you can use it for fuel. I know what burning rubber is gonna do I know what tires and I do I know what fuels can deal. It's just too unpredictable and too unsafe for us do it willingly -- want the way we should. So it doesn't -- Lackey could smoke the palace and strong that it like. But it's still pretty good -- far it's still hot it's still gets stretched those plans and that people want to fire. If we don't operate in those environments often enough you don't get a lot of fires which is good -- and he can Kentucky tonight's town and it certainly wouldn't wanna see charred and blackened. They usually a few other towns that are really suffers an urban. Decay that I get the fires that everybody would love to get. But most of us don't have such as -- have fires every day. Now. For the sake of that acquired -- structure you're getting an opportunity to know when the fires going to be. Which you've got -- -- -- -- -- on how to fire behaviors going to be and comfort in an environment. So that when you get care you're not practicing on John Q -- house. That is absolutely the wrong time to do but unfortunately sometimes it's a limited to. Giving you the opportunity that acquired structure. Working with even if it's -- strong -- Work -- one limited time. -- have a -- good you know it's like the the military you know it is no real -- if there's no war going on is they can't make a war but yet they are able to train their soldiers to functions if they are war. So between simulators and and as close to real scenario is possible. But you know it and I appreciate you gotta understand fire behavior. But we also see a lot of problems with firefighters not on how to stretch lines. Work -- dark environments can be done all right you firehouse. I just don't think we're out on the floors enough to in the practical stuff as much as we could to be every shift every day. When I first came -- FDIC. I got involved in the fourteen you know reprogramming in the live -- and did it for a couple years here and we did it. And acquired. Houses. Fourteen -- -- as you know was created because of incidents where firefighters were seriously injured or killed during training fires. And -- you must follow the standard you must know about it and you must go beyond the standard as well. There are people who do this and I've done training burns. In planning estates what I think. We really need to do and I believe that firefighters should have practical fire experience now. If it becomes a graduation ceremony event that's fine you have to lead up to it. Flash over training is great but we have to move beyond that as well. Now what I believe we should do is standardize the burned structure. Across the country so that if you take -- firm. In new York and another politics in California you're gonna cover the same the same things the same events and alerts. We might stimulative basement fire okay so you learn any instructed to turn -- trained on how to give this. Give this standardized like burned so everybody in the country learns the right thing to do and it's universal. Then we remove the Fear Factor. For academies to actually happens because I do believe it's a valuable thing. -- -- And unfortunately a lot of folks account for some of the fires make it onto your site. And sometimes your site. Went along the ones -- -- good you don't hear. And there is an advantage of that having that well managed lives are. Scenario. Unfortunately the reason some of the rules and regulations are in places because they've gotten way out of hand. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- And and the difficulty is taken out of control. And and the right steps are put in place to to be able to call -- and say wait time out. We've got to regroup here and that's the disadvantage. To look -- -- still don't. The AV guy -- don't don't do this. -- -- We couldn't find any standard -- News. Firefighters top brands. -- -- Yeah yeah sometimes that's not the right thing to do I say in my class I was involved in a what -- you know one once wasn't quite a fourteen okay. Now I'll never do that again -- notes -- that kind of -- -- next question. Okay born here right now you ask the controversy. We do think -- sure it goes with your pants and. -- -- That's okay. How can end our service continues to expend enormous funds on apparatus and toys. And rules we think we me but not -- our prevention and education programs to improve safety of the citizens we -- to protect. And reduce the risk for our Brothers and sisters. Good question. You we don't know how many people -- safe by fire prevention. We it's incalculable. We'll never know how many people got out of the house of time because of smoke detector we try to -- the statistics. And they -- working on trying to get nationally standardized -- -- a lot of things Nam. But we do you know how many people died in fires. So those statistics help us get those tools toys -- trucks. Probably better educate the citizens. That's -- of money -- and sometimes it comes down to what we have what we need. Unfortunately things that are important to some folks are not necessarily professional public education. I would jump in there to say that what I would consider a successful apartment. That is able to deal with emergencies when they occur. But put just -- -- enters -- preventing there's occurrences. And the examples level uses departments that have really great fire prevention public education programs out there that that. Get to the point where we say we're gonna save lives and property. It just doesn't mean onion about -- line. It means preventing the occurrence of -- fire. And and then it also means putting some stop gaps. Systems in place residential sprinklers. And other. Croat mechanisms. To reduce the occurrences of deaths by fire and our country. And and there are and and -- so it's gonna travel around the country have heard at all you know that's going to be the end of the fire service were not gonna happen if Favre were you know prince -- campaign where -- presided awhile back put in a mandatory residential sprinkler. System in our law in place -- -- thrown twenty some years now. And in what they're still haven't fires. Fortunately. Less people -- dying. And and most importantly is a farce held in -- enough for the people to get -- the next little. We can rebuild the house we concluded -- news multifamily -- we can build another -- mansion. Well we can't replace that family. Think it's stuck in the house. With out a working smoke detector without some means of technology. Or even the education that they need to check their detector. Where they have an exit plan in place to get out of -- structure. And then you add all the components of what we're building structures with a net. And the fire is escalating at a much faster pace. And that the potential of escape from my house today is much less because of building materials and the plastics and all the stuff. We put in our houses it's made. From. Products to -- quickly and produce all those toxins and and and then poisonous. Gasses. And so we've got to tell that story. And prevention is part of that so -- I I think that that's how you really measure -- successful apartment after doing at all. I think -- you're -- to selling the fire prevention message. Fires it down statistically nationwide. That's not to say -- you met your messages out there it's working. And the money of course like anything else people don't see you see something tangible when you buy -- tool if there. When you send out a message -- not quite sure how many people heard it understood it -- gonna. By and that's the problem we don't inspect people's homes either. You know -- America people are able to do what they want they do things that aren't necessarily so -- times. And of course as you know we -- of dealing with it. But I think the fire prevention -- working -- different levels like we said here. Obviously installation of sprinklers in a lot of places. What I lot what I would love to see is some. No. No floor -- left uncovered. We have firefighters have formed through floors. Themes that have burned through and they weren't protected by any sheet rock. And that really is a shame. And that that shouldn't be. I think probably my biggest concern is the fact. We -- with the budget cuts everybody in person training conference Herbie says -- training the first thing to -- -- (%expletive). Public education the person in his -- And everywhere it's -- -- -- delegated to somebody who doesn't have the proper training. You know the right things to train on and it hit -- -- about but it and all Edmonds and so far it's hard to measure that's not true we do this or. Well I didn't answer the question is through what I sense we're -- the ID I guess I can't we have sets you greet them. That it is. There are ways to mention this but we definitely. If we've actually been phenomenal job we've reduced it at her -- -- Amber's in the but we still we lost more people to just regular residential fires. And that almost ten years since 9/11. Than we did that -- and get anything about it because the fire -- in any cases. Don't maybe public education a thousand dollar budget. To do something where. And that it's the increase because. It's RC it's you know -- businesses and our experts but it's our citizens that need them. Its its its work to some extent as Israel says it scores you acknowledged. You want brutal honesty is nothing fun about. Nothing exciting about it's not why we joined the fire service. In it's facts and some people did that that's not what most people joined. So we have to educate the firefighters imports has to -- the academy well. Once academy forget that they get you know whatever they get their fire houses -- come from the -- to chiefs have to educate their superiors. The ports preventing the fire. -- -- big secret would be that if every dwelling with -- they would be having these budget issues across the country right now. Because I mean you have a measurable decreases in -- businesses losses. It's a tough battle in anytime -- try to change human behavior that's what -- that is that's all -- that is human behavior. Try to change in behavior is -- very very difficult -- That's -- the answer is the mandatory installation residential fire sprinklers. And once we do that there will show we're serious about it until then we'll keep responding re actively. Two fires and incidence and although we have made a difference. To really get that cap -- chief talks on the keys from they have plenty fires -- of the firefighters can and and enough lacking to go to runs but yet. But never -- while your company on the -- it's almost like they're pissed off sprinkler put it out but you know what. There's much we may joke about that. I guess. We should be teaching at the cat. Who the last business -- when -- -- public education environment RRR one. That's where -- and it's and it's because we weren't paying attention because those -- those people that you are I think it is more maintenance. We're paying attention now of course when we don't have a national organization and speak up -- yet. Good points. I I would ask. And are coming very very good points to -- I would asking our community go to schools we've done a great programs that one of our lieutenants after staff and he's done a great job through his school what do you think it's -- school the school helped -- -- and -- -- so there are other means of doing that. -- next question -- -- gonna Richard. Well you have your arms crossed he looked pissed off -- that I. Not just up the question -- response team. Huge risk factor. Are all struggling with it. We don't have a home voice some departments have policy response he is the post. Or posted -- -- processor factor. Other departments leave it to the apparatus operator to decide -- be. -- concerns that that's trying to download critical safety decision on our our -- so the question is this. How would you define -- response be. And like like a little fired -- -- conditions peoples who would you discuss first as the conditions. Computer rural country -- to 55 miles an hour sixty miles get to a fired -- relatively safe. You take that same apparatus to go to a occupied densely populated residential neighborhood you can't do that. So I think there has to be some responsibility to drivers level but the forgotten factor and only until recently -- to see more more officers being held accountable. If he officer right in the front -- your supervisor. Again that what are the policies and what of the policy is the organization. In some cases state -- will dictate what -- policies and I can respond stuff. But I think that the officer of the driver the F press have to go through some serious training. That's some nonsense stuff I mean in the audience is Mike Wilbur. One of the best people -- -- train -- driver education and it should be driving your apparatus but does it component of the officer. Being in there who's. Not only providing concentrating but supervision. And -- it depends on conditions. And I can tell you might might my firefighters are gonna drive a certain speed. Go to somebody with who's complaining of foot pain. And if they get -- -- reporting kids trapped on the second for the gonna go a different speed and I expect the officer that -- the driver. Based upon conditions to make those decisions to get their you know as quickly as possible. But they gotta get there. So anything you did have -- answer but it depends on conditions. Wouldn't I wouldn't -- Obviously you wanna be reckless -- be reckless driving. Like Billy said you wanna drive -- with conditions and based a little bit on what the poll calls about now is -- going to be that exactly who knows but. You know I'm not against going over the speed limit a -- I mean you drive down the street new look at you speedometer. 3030 miles an hour you're doing forty I'm liking myself speeding ticket. But this drive safe. He can drive. Or below lists and then have to drive below and it depends on what's going on. I don't know that you can set a policy. Got to be ready to -- quick chief you gotta be ready for that kid run across street. Ohio last year apparatus was responding -- that cover this today now apparatus was responding to a call. First tree goes through an intersection heavily -- -- was his grandson in the car hard of hearing you stop the rate went through he proceeded forging his second rate. Three crashed and killed a grandfather -- the -- up. But who's driving apparatus was the cousin of the two people she just killed. She don't know who you gonna run into -- those highways whether it's whether it's an attorney Stanley or whether it's you know seriously. One -- -- and everything you don't want to be involved in a serious apparatus collision happened with that she. Absolutely and it's it's a no win and we had our share in my tenure prince for his -- of -- -- situations. And it's it's not good when dateline tracked down for a month -- and people trying digital camera about a family of five that a fire truck ran over and and and killed all local but the point is and one of the. -- is yes speed is his -- you. Intersections is another but Billy touched on it. Having a policy that that the department has said this is what we're going to be in prince -- we were allowed to go. In in good weather ten miles over the posted speed limit and -- what he had to go to the -- moment. The difficulty was. You know whether or not the driver's fault. And that goes to a piece of having. The clear understanding that these are the rules and if you don't follow the rules you're gonna get -- for bottom line the critic LD also his training people to operate the rigs are putting them in. One of the pieces that he's surfacing is that we provide a basic driver training program and we usually take oldest Reagan's lowest rate and we take it to the academy or wherever we're gonna do and that's -- -- everybody on. And then you get blast as a driver. Then we take when a fire station fortunate tanker that's got 3000 gallons of water sloshing around that that isn't that same -- practice. And one of the pieces of -- -- has been reporting on and in a variety of incidences that. Firefighters are trained to drive rates but they're not trained to drive the race -- They haven't spent time behind will and I think all of us have been in a situation where we've left fingerprint marks in the dashboard. You know whether we were driving or person it was scared -- so badly. If we were able to put it to get some time practicing on what the capabilities of that -- -- and how long it really does take you to stop. The seventeenth on fire truck. We would have a much better understanding of what the speed capabilities. Of what we're comfortable with the -- it's hard to Angeles a -- number. Because of what -- -- that the -- Alton road conditions. In the city and in in suburbia. But -- having penalties a policy to start with an address in the intersections. Are critical things. They've -- -- places that. Exactly like you said ten over the speed limit being an income that would equal dispute limitless. But whether. Com State Department girls -- part I'm sure everybody's -- an apartment. Another lesson boy had a couple drivers -- -- what we're asking like third grade school girl on the wouldn't call. In the case they're getting and either slow down or stop. There's been one that can seat to go to drive capacity ready to go and yes -- a great in the backseat. -- -- The guy out. Another driver I've been blessed and we have some of the good drivers that we always -- about the extreme drivers most of our drivers are pretty good I wanna drove. Quickly to only one of -- types of calls kids involved something on fire or -- PP. But mostly guys drive fairly well drive fairly responsibly there. They have to understand definitely training to go along with our policy is also having training -- the apparatus of god. Thank you touched on. The tanker driver okay you don't drive tanker into your checked off on driving a -- And you meet these require com. Competencies and that should include more than eighty with the -- course -- but also a speed course much like the police do with the pursuit drive. That they -- Not necessarily gonna chase people fire trucks but understand. That these trucks have limits just because it's a fire -- it doesn't mean they will stop on a dime we're do we want unfortunately seen statistics prove that point. The manufacturers have gone to a step to even help us protect ourselves by governing apparatus and how fast -- will go. Because of our own stupidity in some cases. It frustrates us that -- take some corners that we don't want him the best thing you can do this properly trained and moderator people. On that. Those same topic let me ask yes or no questions. Assuming -- end to that state law is not a factor here. Would each -- you require. We're not require. -- department to have a policy which says. You may not exceed the speed limit by more than ten miles an hour on any call. Would you require that we're not require that -- Probably not. -- and potential of the question. Which fear -- -- design now how would you. If you could impose the if you could impose -- -- requirement. There must be logged in apply would you require your department -- not doing just -- placed -- panel probation that's. And our our department did impose a ten dollars even I feel comfortable based on the surface. And -- do the different because we didn't back them that in our. In 112 question and you'll see why I'm asking. Would you require that all vehicles come -- -- complete stop at all controlled intersections yes. -- -- -- Complete stop not slowdown is necessary yeah. -- -- -- -- -- And I'm gonna with -- there's some intersections and -- a little bit of -- But having control of the intersection you can tell you something you can only tell by getting across the intersection a little bit but outside tournaments of. In the 95% yes coming to a stop and controllers. -- dual -- me an honest answer you're pretty complete stack up. -- -- And it's interesting both of those are required -- the -- So an FDA requires you did not exceed by ten more than ten miles an hour and and both come to a complete stop. Fortunately I was in New York for neither -- -- required to do it and how we police. Next question. Lost. There aren't your -- virulent. Rob Fisher I'm from Washington State -- lieutenant. And Q so schools. And -- my question is going to be about red. -- -- The late -- friend sent -- years ago. Yet some heavy criticism for it. Do you think we are safer because the reasons. Or do you mean that we've. Why should -- with the reasons have we got away from. Fire -- -- operations Ellis. Where are as the latter. So I'm curious on your opinions. Written. It. In some answers just some answers now for the sake of showing up on the CNN not gonna work because -- waiting for a couple more guys to show up. That's circumstance got worse every eighteen seconds intensity the fire doubled if people want -- early put on fast we took -- -- circumstance no reasoning. We sat there and waited from -- shall we had a cult when he -- -- for 24 point -- forty guys. We just made it dangerous for everybody. For so for that say no I think -- kind of crippled us. In the case of -- inside get into trouble have some guys dedicated with training with tools with the couldn't come -- -- when my school well yes. So it's kind of -- back and forth -- but for those reasons. But it is it is -- -- -- answer because. If you have a fully equipped and and trained team who knows what they need to do when you need to do it than than you have data protection. But how many times -- -- somebody assigned to the -- assignment and they've never done before but. We check them off the board on our command it's okay we got team. And then when -- Needham you've got to figure out where are they. When you go for mating call -- trying to figure out where they are what you're doing. So that it provides some false sense of security that yes we happen but the question is what he really -- so it's it goes both way. Obviously there's nothing wrong with protecting our interest and our lives on the fire ground we want to do that and having -- -- -- team in place is a great thing. And we've all learned a lot of skills from that development. Firefighters survival skills and things like that. And that's good but let's also make sure we -- quote the protection of the civilians who don't we -- -- every team. So no problem with having -- -- but let's make sure route we're giving at all to the civilians as well. The team only came about the last thing is 1015 years so. As we've seen Steffi go to town -- he's more popular US. Certainly haven't routine month -- of value of this thing unit in the public industry and in the car industry that. -- of the newer cars now a lot more safety features airbags and there's a Mercedes -- almost drive themselves things like that. So they're finding that the the drivers of these cars. Are doing more stuff to distract themselves knowing this stuff will kick in. And you know there's one cardinal makes it but it actually if you go cross the line it starts to beep and stuff. So now you have more chance to do you hear you make up -- get a line at all actually drive right. I don't think and I just started thinking about this with your question I don't think fire departments. All are acting. In the way just describe civilians knowing there's a -- outside I don't know that that's an issue. In other words -- we can be more reckless we can do more crazy stuff because the rich teams out I don't think that's an issue with a is -- in your area and my. I guess the reason my bringing up -- I have concerns. Staffing. And kind of science to it steady of the routine where the line -- the rich images are staffing on the fire again kind of you know what. Rates at last year talking about having a culture of -- Extinguishment. Are we keep you away from doing the things that were supposed to be doing on the fire ground you put the fire out -- -- say. Or -- we putting together these fancy. Terms and teens. To me hassle in the checkoff on -- I had I not it's not completely sold on on the -- concept. And after these ten years and I'd be curious. With a show of hands who here has been -- -- redeployment. Successful. Well it must do three yeah. That's my responsibility honestly I mean again -- I'd I'd rather. If you gave me -- -- put a question in your -- -- if you agree with this if he gave me choice of giving me good solid number for my first alarm assignment. Using the number twenty. Or give me ten plus a routine I'll take the -- -- again in particular far minimize the problem about cinema for -- teams that not a fighter. Three weeks ago and lie it was a my fire we've mutually united back buildings chief. And a lot of companies there was huge house is just to go well. Such talk to the commander reputable but my boss -- the operations chief time -- -- you believe this. We have mutually department comment is a great team this -- -- Six cash -- -- okay well that's not bad. He says this a -- at three air packs. Stuff. Shoes there's -- locked in the compartment that's. You would never go back and -- It's not it is just that you know what went after him -- cute there were there -- has. You know -- of people there -- small part I'm lucky we get sent -- you guys don't be jealous now. New York City does it right and you know I spent a lot of time -- people about that. But they understand you've got to have enough people to get ahead of the fire. And that's that's this that is the entire magic formula. You've got to have enough people. And anymore because yeah I guess that's what my point is that in FTY. It probably won't work because they got the staff. And fires a seven hour work. We're having to take away important staff. To create something that diet exercise but -- I was just -- -- that goes back to the earlier comment though that if if you're the commander of don't have enough people you need to keep call Foreman and be willing to do that. Anyway because you've been good to see your point as far as it got seventeen guys got to figure out what you gonna do is al-Qaeda is seventeen guys to take -- the situation right now. The thing to do corduroy -- wait. It's a judgment call but sometimes that's what we need to do is I would say for -- safety but sometimes trying to make ourselves so safe you become an effective. Thanks. Yeah -- we ever thought we had a fiber. -- -- -- ten minutes I want it to -- than five minutes and he should be out next two questions it's quickly we can answer them into. -- -- -- -- -- Are alive it pretty. We talk about -- -- we talk about heart attacks strokes prevention. I don't spend a lot of money on pre hire her book -- -- -- fit for -- testing we spend a ton of time in training. RR Patterson academy we spent some time here at this conference change people who become better higher. Yet we consistently. Forgets. To humanity fitness and fit for -- testing for our our translator in their careers. I want to know why we need a wow and this is going to be kind of an entity statement -- things that don't -- it that way but -- the -- that. To say that we cannot -- it for testing and punitive testing process. Because quite frankly that is part of our crop. If we were fit for duty. Our training would benefit us more we would have -- Hannity that's who would have less injuries. And I can -- department is very attractive with fitness fair practice -- it very -- testing it was not hard to implement. I just I don't understand why we don't spend much time energy and heating our -- fire -- market. You like to know your opinion because -- I know that there that I wanted you went through who works my -- -- -- -- shot. I think like every. -- -- Honestly society anybody -- -- any professional is it does anybody farmhouse -- -- As long as one reason unfortunately make ourselves culpable we have down time and try to make -- -- We should put a lot of energy. Towards training and towards goodness there. Tool and your situation there for the sake of getting fit and staying fit. From the union's perspective there -- protect jobs you have potential washing people out there high paid and -- -- And impact on the -- and they'll have a limited budget actually kicking people out. So that's one sign when -- beside the point is that's a diagonal line so I'm undersized -- Continuing differently. And having an annual tests if you don't make it you -- make it. -- certain amount of time you would make it again or you have to. Going light duty. Until you can make. Because we're relying on -- to do your job at the building doesn't care the fire doesn't care how are you all male female black quite tall short fat skinny. Capabilities what's necessary in the bar said he said it wouldn't you guys confident it should be maintained only through. I'm. Pretty big fan with the unions done over the years with health and safety. And I think they've set the standard many cases. -- it's easy to broad brush that the international. Does this who doesn't do that. But if the specific local wants to get it done as you did in years it can get done. If a specific lieutenant or captain wants their members to be fit it can't get democratic captain -- for me many years ago by David any quarter. -- got the company offices of the year award from first magazine a couple of years ago -- very proud. Danny was a fitness nut and he had a couple fire -- -- did not like to do physical fitness. And he put them in training scenarios -- they had to -- training to show them why they needed to be in better shape. They're out of breath they're swept you know and and then he would sit down and talk some of that. He also had a great strategy that I love what I found out about courses and upon my desk is a problem we dealt -- Is he would take the engine with his four firefighters. He would have -- get off the -- have the driver drive a -- they have done a road he'd make a walk to the truck. Just to get them out move okay well whatever it takes so and I don't know exactly the specifics there you you're talking about but. Again the the international -- jobs to take care of their members right wrong and different it is what it is you wanna set you -- you would not. Okay that's a little example. And we're just at an organizational yes. -- that has danced around fitness. But it'll all politics are local like Tip O'Neill said users go in the prevention of firefighter death as local as well -- -- up to the local volunteer fire company. Or local up to local union to the local fire chief if we want to solve this problem we can solve the problem. And it's it's awful and I appreciate where you come from -- that. But if you're gonna work on my engine in my truck we're gonna be doing training you're gonna suddenly realize why you gotta be in better shape. The you year body language tells you don't like the answer is. -- You get your your frustration is appreciated. But remember what the union's -- -- An idea that I could play them as an example because I didn't -- exactly what they say but. But Yahoo! spend a lot of money talking about producing. Information out there talking about how we diabetes. Should have specific instances. Right who we (%expletive) we're worried twinkies all -- on -- -- in -- I stand and I think -- if there's a couple of pieces there. First of all -- statistics. Firefighter fatalities in the in the category of cardiovascular. For a career for Arafat was actually on decline. Unfortunately. Cardiovascular deaths of firefighters on the volunteer side of the house -- on an increase. And there's a variety of reasons. And it uses it to be able to say that. Of those departments of of the aggressive physical fitness program. Has had significant results in reducing department of intelligence is -- -- what's happening. There are there are a lot of issues related to costs and negotiations. And contracts and all that on careers apartment that fit in that the difficulty is I think. On 75% of the fire. Community volunteers. A lot of jurisdictions don't have the money for physicals -- weapons program or haven't taken the steps to get that equipment in place. And so it becomes that little choice. That that delivers. -- we are seeing is and it can decrease in cardiovascular risk group are partners. Because more apartments and labor unions are working together. To get that -- still are there still departments that are fighting it in opposing it absolutely. But that's what makes the fire service -- unique is it is a local issue in each community approaches differently. A simple fix next -- when you go to work take this stuff that's in the TV room and put in the work out room. The stuff that's the workout room -- the room but you do big science. Fair. Fortunately there and I don't know -- I'm sure. We're get an independent you know Joey talked earlier about we spend lots of money million dollars a ladder truck in the department spend their money for physical fitness. -- should alarm goes off and stuff like that. I would have -- There. I would challenge unit is -- the volunteers and volunteers who think it's of the grain but volunteers are we worse obviously is a statue showing. We don't require you work out at all if your fat year old in your releases will take you just sign an application and we get -- -- that. I'm okay we -- -- -- here. -- okay next. Jason from -- -- this whole thing. I'm a big guy that I have to worry every -- bone structure fire some kind of situation that might -- team you'll come rescue me. And it kind of revert back what you just asked about recreate it stands here which -- -- opinion is on that. And you know cause I I do a lot of instructing it -- a bit in our area called park apartments. And that I am fine example art class. Yeah yeah -- girls. And it is not always successful. Or five guys there 45 organize them air. Over and over and over again. Besides having to -- great fitted as standard which -- -- that about it size standard. I noticed I don't know what kind of and you -- you have on that but. They used to be one good because of requirements and -- that's changed over the years. There used to be you must be so -- to run park that's way to give the six foot hook. Which is now. I think you know. Unfortunately in it -- this'll. We've been dictated in some cases. The types of people -- -- and I'll take this comment wrong. But there's got to be and it exists that the NFB level there's got to be a minimal standard that people have to function -- in the fire department. If we have a firefighter that's at five foot zero. And they're unable to move a six foot seven firefighter. -- that's a problem. And experiences I mean I'm all for changing apparatus from ergonomics as -- you reach those those excuses are (%expletive) for years. But you've got to be able to function at some level. And pretty liberal -- my opinions pretty liberal when it comes to certain things but. At some point we got to forget we've got to remember we're here for. We're here for when people are having their worst day. Therefore unable to stretch a two and a half if one able to pull ceiling if we're able to -- forget you -- -- able to move the victim. Then this may not be free you to do and and. I agree that we keep -- people. -- -- either and I -- -- five department last eight years and you know they've -- I've seen they've lowered the physical standard because we're not getting enough. And not getting the number of people sort of lowering our stance against a lower quality -- get more now. We have not done a good enough in our history unfortunately is disgusting and how we handle -- decades ago and stuff I mean we we we blocked. Everyone out that would even have a possibility -- that's -- -- -- talk about and I'll tell about it the extreme range it's it to me. If someone can't do the job as a two time and I have two daughters that are size zero there -- there you know -- -- evident and very professional but they're not firefighters okay. When someone calls on -- they're counting on us there's got to be a minimal standard. That we all can agree on. That determines what and the kind of people we hire wanna talk about kind of obvious physical. -- boy girl not you know. -- race nothin' like that can you do the basic minimal. And what we failed to do in my opinion is we've not educated people who were throwing these laws back at us. And the judges to understand what we need to do so now they'll come back and say okay. In the past. It would take two firefighters to move this person what a huge issues three to do it that's a great -- but if you just cut my staffing. Now I can't deal with that so this is a tough time this is a tough time. But I think you know there was a recent line of duty death of a recruit. And that recruit was put in the position perhaps -- never should have been put it for whatever reason and she burned to death. The system watered down. So there's the other side of that -- -- saying -- you can be a firefighter well let's make sure you can via fire. Yet there's this new recruit guys train -- -- is in Baltimore I was trying to avoid that. Yeah some very silent and thought about it yet but no idea I've got some I've got some of fantastical and -- -- well we're sorry. Not only did is what it is they got in terrible trouble over that and that was a problem lying in wait. Okay but I work with some phenomenal women. Novel guys feet tall short whatever. As long as they can do what's been determined to be the minimum the problem is the courts in different cities and determine what they feel the -- in this. That's a tough I would say you're talking about physical testing annual physical this. -- that that's that's great. I worked at a firefighter who ran a marathon. Marathon runner. You know heart attack one night after working -- home and heart that we can't always judge. You can't judge a book by its cover up now some problems we may not -- but. What I see is a problem is that be great physical testing like the lady asked before all that stuff is great I would like to see skill test thing. Let's make sure -- skills are up the ball every yet because so let's fire as you go to an -- training you do you skills suffer. And remember we can get involved a lot of things -- when somebody's home is on fire -- the only people who can handle on emergency. So our skill level has to be there. Forget staffing and all of those things or personal skill levels have to be -- all the time 24 hours a day 3 o'clock in the morning and I think that's what I'd like to see. Yeah that's the kind of physical that's not talking about talking about -- -- all parents have push -- its skill based assessments. But look look at how many people that spent time and ends and this is and I CES is -- reasserted us racers that but they still can't stretching analyze. That's our core basic service. Is the fire. And what we've done when we talk about the sixty -- safety initiatives one of them talks about. Meeting the minimum training standard and -- certifying that on an annual basis you can perform and skills. -- controversial and some apartments it is and others it's -- standard practice. The critic out tonight period being able to do the job no matter -- bigger -- you are small or whatever you can do the job. And then then welcome if you can't then when you -- its atmosphere -- -- -- make you guys -- so we can get some of the questions and and -- -- out here. I'm -- from Delta Junction, Alaska and heading out the volunteer fire department. And I have a question about saying that he -- to welcome we're talking about maintenance skills. -- kids I tried constantly to argue with that City Council that I need funding reports saying. And yes Baghdad from vanity that if it was messy -- that might prove I -- 12. It would be mandatory. I turn around and try to get actually breathe it eat my hat. On the department and they say it will it really needed it would be -- -- -- mask and hat to take it. So why didn't -- mandatory because I think it it love city council on over. Excuse me would be willing to put in a whole lot more money -- -- -- -- so why isn't. Because the majority of us not -- speaking but the majority of the fire service don't want men to return. -- as we haven't. -- -- -- This states in this is in the United States that the fire chief does not have that firefighter want. Does not happen at any basic training. Well when that state wants -- then we'll have it is enough firefighters in every state in Alaska to. If all the firefighters Alaska got together and marched to her office and said. We demand firefighter want as a middle requirement suddenly. All the politicians in Alaska that are keep in Iran Russia would turn around. I had that right and they would find the funding to do it but we don't want that we fight now. Ali can't make us do this you can't -- kind -- the American way. So when we're ready for mandatory standards will have them starting at the local level than the state and then across the country. At its best answering. It. Somebody else has to think about -- make us do it. And we're not taking care of business for ourselves that other agencies dictate how we operate and what we do. Somebody else will think of them -- we don't. I think that the shame of it is we -- We as members of the -- service have the opportunity. To to make the -- that are needed but we don't I think it's gonna happen -- -- legal systems that are out there as we see firefighters being arrested and charged. With manslaughter because of -- training incident that went bad. Or -- killing somebody driving a vehicle. They're gonna change for us. And then -- really going to be in a predicament because -- -- no input along the way and it comes down to politics it comes down to you know the freedom of doing it the way out wanted to do -- you know half a mile away. Well the reality is we've got to address those issues and we have seen no it's what's best. For the citizens out there not what's best for us. And I tell this story but when argument my speeches. One of the issues I had when I was in virtual discounting is. One of the fire station decided they thought was pretty cool that they had a bumper sticker on the front of their farm truck. And it's and having fun and other people's expense. And that unfortunately. Is the mentality and some of this business. Then it's a fun thing to be a firefighter it's fun to go out and bill it probably doesn't talking about we won't go there. But the reality is we've got a look at what's best for the citizens and we missed that point. Mandatory training requirements. Mandatory elements to make us the best that we could be is better for the citizens would Obama's race. You you go to the list association of fire chiefs at their next meeting you propose. Mandatory requirement for all volunteer firefighters -- -- -- -- department. Yes in the state of Alaska have an animal firefighter one -- -- with the responses it may be positive. I'm gonna guess that you're not going to be warmly appreciated. -- -- yeah that's it's because of us we are the enemy right and we are we create our own problems. -- Israeli notice that eventually sub's gonna change and really force this kind of stuff it's better for us to change ourselves than have the politician changes some good luck. -- -- used a Trace it right here him. Lobby error. It's so amazing that it works. And that will take place. So I don't know what stopped me. Our art department head has accommodation department had no lot minimum standards for volunteers. In July march 7 2002 went to -- guys fell through the floor. And Doug Donaldson decided it was a good idea so -- learn from the deaths of our Brothers and sisters and that should be enough I would say -- this you know. We went to a mutually call one and if you are confident or happy you were training of your department. Remember that you're going to be under somebody else's command someday and how confident do you feel when they may have no minimum standards. The state he needs to make sure that all of us are safe when we go to somebody else's calls because we don't know what standards they have when they're dictating what we -- fire ground. -- -- I believe that from Washington DC but I believe that the NFPA. Is a hindrance you operations in the fire service. At what point do we get together since and it -- to be industry driven. What what point do we get together. And come up with an organization that's fire department -- -- To govern some of the things that we view. That was all about we don't show the meetings that and -- but. We can govern ourselves. And establish what's best for us. The one in my role as chair of the diocese safety and health and survival section about 1112100 members of I just took a look at them myself to see what level of -- but you can't just this tech question runaway. Definitely. -- Dead. -- it is safely -- abbreviating he'll have to -- to get the -- right. And the -- -- to start a couple years ago. The previous I -- aside. Actually try the starter -- making process it's it's almost impossible to do. And an area like this but it could you said the answer is for our -- And its industry driven because we're too busy trying to do all the other stuff we do -- business. I agree would you to some extent. That some of the NFB stands that it exists exists because we've been asleep at the wheel. And that industry's been allowed to carry -- further. But unfortunately I think. In my limited time and his business. The only solution is to keep get more involved more engaged in NFPA. I apologize because that's what you're complaining about but I really think that's the only way to do it. I -- a change we -- that I repeat we are members yet. They're very small and I don't belongs to expenses. Because we're -- manufacturers were not corporations have a lot of money behind us -- regular civilians regular Firefox. That cost these go down for 500 -- we needed drive our own boss. You look at -- -- committee and almost a lot of it a lot of it is given -- has. Manufacturers. Listed on and then sprinkled -- with firefighters. Now lot of very intelligent firefighters do -- very good job but we would take. Advantage quote -- expect them to do the right things for us. When sometimes they don't sometimes -- -- -- little beyond sometimes they don't do enough. We need to take a little personal accountability maybe jump on this committee's I'm just as guilty. But you can get on it for free and vote or sending messages and comments. And get things working in a direction to -- residences and wait and watch. It can be like the City Hall that's happy when there's no citizens asking questions -- can be -- City -- -- this is is keeping asking questions. City -- -- -- when this is is this questions. And we need to escort you remember the IFF. -- few local and ask where the IFF reps are and a BA committees and what are they represented and people belong to the end the FCC thing IFC -- thing and that's another way we can do as well. We have we have very few. Very little time -- so I want to get to the other questions and maybe we start answering them on the other side I guess we'll just keep coming this way but if I could ask the -- keep very short answers. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Right now I think your fire service today. Safety vest is -- -- We have. T units safety vest and put god and felt like that word invincible an accident scenes in. -- house fires and everything else when that wind. In reality it's a dandy for the what's happening and are scenes we need to see. T in the standard. Bit fire apparatus across the border for every department every state. Hand blocking capabilities. -- be able to have. A a loss place. For something like that and also that we don't get arrested. And fires and this is a joke. The safety glasses. It's -- -- -- -- -- work something it's true man can't. The experts have argued would be for use my answer is -- shut the road down period. You'd block the Fiat -- shut the road but how come we're not going to police departments. Our the law -- -- here why are we going to hear. Conventions and saying here's what's new for you out there on and for every one firefighter team -- -- -- -- three cops took him bigger problem we. Right but they started to change their seniors -- -- blocking the way it position cars field where we have the power. The law what I think and -- Has to store that local community. And prince George's -- when when I was chief was one of those departments that one of our chief -- wasn't -- restaurant. On -- modify. And again. Granted there's a lot of -- that was involved in -- whole process. The piece that we fixed after that -- we got together the fire department and police department is that a policy in place. The difficulties if you haven't addressed that issue has been addressed at the local local between the agencies that are going to be on that way. And haven't sat down and had those discussions with public works and state highway and all the other administrative people who -- -- that. -- -- doomed to have that conflict. So that's worked got to start at that level with an understanding of what you're gonna do and what the expectations are for the safety of the people operating on the scene. Right Aaron Aaron have to agree with you that what you know she would spend all these hundreds of dollars in safety message here put this and then -- even under fire season again and again going inside. It's they can just -- possibly using. I got -- I get. Cut everybody off I apologize here to -- you monitors but they're telling us to get back off the stage pretty much so likely get -- some last minute comments. From people like I do apologize and other people waiting line but maybe get some 22 wrap up comments and I mean we could probably around -- answer questions. Jeff I'll start this and it's been good to be able to sit and talk with everybody -- it was one of the pieces that was really interesting the fire -- community got together and 2004. Put together. The life safety initiatives that was a joint effort of all the organizations. And every single topic that we talked about here today or somewhere addressed or talked about. We're stressed that we have more work to do -- it was one of those sixteen initiatives. And so foundation being very biased towards them. I highly recommend if you haven't spent time to figure out what -- going on with them. That you go to the government goes home site and -- get engaged. And that's peace with all these issues. You you you gotta. Do more than just say we have a problem you have to offer solutions to fix those problems. And take the stand to make that difference. Does -- know me know memento of many words like you're very brief. Don't accept mediocrity. The -- it's 1% the firehouse -- -- improved to 200% of the folks in the firehouse and want to do their job because they're here for the right reason. Don't allow the guys sit on the rest -- do nothing. When their lives -- going to be held your hand you're gonna have to rely on them to do their job the right way. Don't accept mediocrity. And learn the lessons of things past but don't let -- scary out -- your job. Do you job know your job understand how the circumstances plan before you whether it's car accident fire whatever the case may be. But -- the most you can from your job aren't preaching -- by the folks that are attending here at a fancy editing it's great the past message on those at home that -- been making here. -- -- to lowly job learn from you bring back something that you can. And understand why they're showing at the scene because the people in the -- -- the people on the cars and respecting us to do our jobs are relying has to be professionals and -- -- and there's no reason why we should. Definitely. It's been a pleasure via. We you'll. Basically want the same thing we all want to do our jobs to a job safely and get home come back into -- -- for another day. The messages some messages are getting out there -- some aren't. We have to work individual level company level. Job wide level national level to get to get the messages out the good message that we want to deliver. Effective fire operations to our communities and we want to. Take care of the people in our communities and ourselves. Just one little plug. Have a new website called urban -- dot com and is a nice free magazine in there Peter Reid who -- Since the Detroit firefighter real quick just -- by the responder safety -- they've got some policies procedures and guidelines on traffic management that'll be big help team. I don't personally think that we can be firefighters would occasionally having a firefighter -- for very valid reason. We're very risky business and we're -- business of saving people's lives so occasionally. A firefighter will have to put themselves in harm's way to save somebody's life that's going to happen. So to think that will totally eliminated although that is the goal is and always realistic however. When you look at -- -- -- duty deaths the occasional -- that have to be taken to get those kids out. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Those firefighters actually had to do what they did. We're talking today is about the firefighters that died that didn't have to die. The -- -- unnecessarily. A warrant security apparatus or drama like lunatics. They were so grossly out of shape he couldn't breathe. That's the stuff we're talking about today. -- thanks for. -- and I think -- -- I want to thank all of you what I would encourage all of you with your upset with an issue -- -- voice of change when somebody says it's not gonna happen be allowed her voice of change let's get things fixed and prevent injuries and deaths. Thank you very much think -- FDIC.

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