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Dr. Jim Brown Interview

Wed, 8 Jul 2009|

At FDIC 2009, Chief Halton talk to Dr. Jim Brown, who was responsible for two recent studies on firefighter physical conditioning.



Spot at home and -- and the SE 2009. You're with someone whose names and comfort to the entire first term social order. Doctor Jim Brown has just released a study in which you can store owner. Toxin researchers. -- -- -- -- -- And the study was -- with technological effects of fighting fire fire fire on our respiratory stress -- our cardiac stress. On this social work. That's why some excellent if -- solution at all. Shelved. And it synopsis what you did you two examples -- arm and. It's. Good physical condition. And you put -- -- -- so one part -- things. Is it records. Cardiovascular function by recording KG and from that we derive our -- and and book world a great news that thing. It also visited -- -- some respiratory inducted with the arbor hands which are simply surely. -- -- the past. They're simply. Bans this -- the chest and abdominal wall. And as greed and they expand and contract. Solely what is important to track changes respiratory. We see every Florida and that we can calibrated. Device that lives. So we know how much -- that -- won't -- Equate -- ball player so you regret the ball up. And exceed the number -- and from that we can. Calculate what we call it an analyst with -- your moving report. A minute period. Now. So this -- is due to paramedics at the -- -- the heart rate -- all that -- -- -- -- -- -- been sent -- a remote location right. -- week that has that capability that we didn't use that capability. Because we were just reporting things and looking at it added after the fact. From a research standpoint we -- necessarily interest instantaneous data. Wanted it's. We needed to take it that information back. And put it into context it's important to what the individual was doing what circumstances. Okay so in -- -- and it capture unit owners and so -- than the minimum -- -- -- You -- respiratory or cardiac. -- what what else did you catch what else we look for. Quality interesting things about the study wasn't in -- Became possible probably a three relationship that we've developed the over the years where. -- -- -- -- -- Stayed in the -- with the guys. And stations that we're involved with. We -- out with them -- we live the life of a firefighter. For about six council over six months whatever run with him. What -- enabled us to do was collect a lot of information about the characterization of the fires basically decides that information while I was -- and how big -- -- -- was -- thing. It also allowed us team. -- The -- where we could look at what individual companies were doing at any given time on the fires. So we we wanted to do not look at just what's the heart rate. Structural -- We want to look at what is the of the cardiovascular responses. Fire attack. Or to -- operations or the analyst upgrades themselves. Exactly so we looked at all those different aspects and by being there on the scene. And having that access and allowed -- to -- -- -- which was really unique partners. And he owns a station life. And you capture station in house call to -- -- Right so. That any you know you had like fifty subjects who succeed are subject's movement of the U six guy episode 56 dollars -- -- they have the fifth -- six firefighters to get capturing thing on duty off duty -- -- use -- -- on -- this was. All on do we we didn't capturing off duty days this particular study. Those things that we hope to do -- -- We we felt like we were asking a lot for the guys wear that device every ship. For political point -- our ship for six months because they were -- to a most of them and overseas device and and it it there was a little bit more anchor it takes a little -- cookies and wear that device have to commend all the men and women who participated in the study date. And he they understood what we -- trying to do that bought into it as porous they welcomed us into the station. -- That was what made this the whole process. Successful. Well you know -- -- paramedic for awhile hasn't read through -- -- As a company and everything isn't trusted my patients format output. I understood some of this from when I was reading it's -- my -- her medicine background came -- The reports a well written you really don't need to be a medic and we've got -- posts that are measured accomplices have risen unbelievable report. The second time through it struck me as I was -- it was through what you found -- leaving you in terms of what kind assure us and what the hearts doing. And it in particular it fires burning there's risk is involved and fires were the -- are searching under extreme conditions. Tell us a little bit about what you found. Well. It's difficult for us to discuss your typical fire. So what we talk about is a typical response from the fire. And it looked back inundated look at the average structure that we respond to act average type of alarm. Time of day annals and things we can describe a typical response that. And that was we we work primarily on single single story -- -- -- less than 3000 square feet. Not a real big structure known not a difficult fire. I think most professional are aren't -- that's -- -- -- -- coal fired. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- What was salt -- that. During the course of that fire the average firefighter. Across all different jobs we'll work some more rounds of parks and other cardiovascular capacity. Which is a pretty substantial work load. Okay so let's put that in terms of -- can understand my heart decency -- a -- -- resting heart rate so full full -- and not doing anything spectacular. And out of our house. What my heart rate go up to -- because of -- subject 5%. Really at this point range and we base what we would expect your tires on toward peace process -- -- is it we would expect. Well the basic standard is that. It's the maximum heart rate that you can achieve. Somewhere around one -- modest rate. So you're twenty year old firefighter when we expect immediate -- heart to beat them. And so what we saw the firefighters was that the average firefighter was working it seventy bucks -- -- level. On just -- these kinds of you know -- stories we're fine. Knoll. What we call extraneous. Stress news. No rest you know. Sales. So far as far first two years older -- success is that -- -- resolve whatever. That you use subtract that from 220 and so was -- thirty year old firefighter his heart rate could go to 190s safely -- And if we would expect he'd be able to it is. 190 yeah that's that's that's that's on them yeah that's that would be of maximum effort. The other thing about that is we would expect the average person or even. Well trained person. To be able to sit sustain that kind of heart rate -- very -- time. So similar -- but in a firefight. -- -- and Americans at third floor and we're trying to grab them -- Some like hurry to get someone from you that this was sort of a senator from with seven it was right there so it's up to about 170. No 165. Actually sort of a sort of almost 65. Can be dangerous for my interest. Not necessarily valuable guy if you if you are his health. -- cardiovascular system as well. It's probably not dangerous OK it's what was it -- dangerous stuff. It's dangerous when you when you have firefighters in those situations or anybody's business solutions where. They have some kind of on -- -- -- disease in. Some -- build up my arteries. Through -- disease unfortunately some of that is so political it's not. Previously known shirt miles and -- -- nobody's gonna shoot it exactly -- -- of people. That. Have been shown to be -- on -- program. The study done a few years ago by a researcher at -- it's pop pills and written anywhere -- from way back and looked over the last twenty years shall at all firefighter deaths. And look for underlying causes and what it that was more than 95% of our -- -- -- the heart attack. -- individuals who had underline cardiovascular disease and mostly -- where. Most of them were aware of it so. Right there tells you something about the the firefighters. That are dying. We we can help prevent some of those kind of -- by. Increasing hormone treatments. By looking yet proven treatments and using those kinds of things to detect problems before they become a problem. There's another piece this thing. And besides just you know underlying materials product disease contributing are now preexisting conditions. He talked about fitness levels and there and on urban firefighters and cricket -- with our. School field here but. It is as I understand it. Your conclusion is that -- to be an urban -- Carter who gets repeated firework at new York city of Detroit. Los Angeles and Denver. We wanted to say isn't really pops -- a lot of calls the physical conditioning for that individuals should be the -- In league athletes' status. What we wanna do is -- want people understand that. The fitness level that you have to be. Firefighters -- bite is gonna -- In some ways is dependent on how much fired but. If you're rural southern Indiana firefighter who might see a handful structural fires in a year. And most of those are gonna fight in a defensive mode. If you're just a healthy person with a healthy horror and -- you're probably not gonna have any problems. But in an urban environment where response times are very quick. And departments to immediately undertake aggressive interior tax. Again they're doing this things these things 2030400. Times a year. Those two situations are vastly different the repeated insults of the body. That's the cause problems for those people and so my feeling is that that he fitness requirements for those people should be much higher. And they need to be trained has. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- men and Mac years ago wrote a book called muscle. Isn't it Gary -- -- live your growth of mental aspects of performance math. And and he -- exactly that'll it was not a dog. Same kind of things that's great to hear someone else's and he he passed away unfortunately and thank you -- The -- -- -- this is investing you know trying to think of the fire service again physical conditioning especially here in this case. The analogy that I use I think they use this in the in the report was that. The difference between the performance levels between that rural volunteer firefighter. And that. Urban busy firehouse the guy is going to fight so many fires you know maybe 23 to ship during -- record of the year. Those firefighters. That the difference between those two things would equate to being the difference between. A high school athlete in -- and it felt -- football. Is so you -- those people. And I I think that we need to get into some discussions at some point about. The different types of -- need to be done these people. I feel like some of the standards that -- right now or. And you -- the very first researchers. Ever actually capture data this kind of data. In real farm arms Israel are -- always been done training prior to stress this. There are -- -- there was a study in 1970s that's where that he. Where they quality and and Michael usher them at all but that -- -- ECU stuff and you're really looking at looking for cardiac anomalies written is. Stuff because the respiratory rate contribute so it knows -- mistrust -- faster so my option -- is actually less you know because we're we're kind panting in and out. And and god knows -- you gotta read the report and if it. To get god forgive you if your car -- -- you don't read this report -- -- -- several variation questions about going forward. Was positive pressure due. In terms of lung capacity in terms of insulation capability in terms of the physiology that you guys look -- Never thought about that. You know as a as a firefighter. There's -- we're we're so those kind of things that we can look at in our laboratory in on the traditional. Laboratory at the university is -- -- students are actually beginning to look at those. Metabolic costs of Reading on an SE BA and how much how much. Energy expenditures. Kind of robbed from the body to be able to do that. One aspect of. Are you gonna be able to keep going forward -- -- -- fun visit Steve look at us and. Well we hope so we have. We've always looking for different. Multiple avenues of funny because you don't want all of your eggs in one basket here. The so far we've been very dependent on the Feyerick -- stuff -- comes up. I think that's -- I think this is the if anything this is very very good use of tax dollars and fire line. We have an exit program that we can have planned out that we have developed based on the work that we've done and then. Consulting with our partners in the fire service and Apple's fire departments and great people -- -- really encouraged dozens of other people around the country. That help us map the direction terms -- what needs to be done. We currently have an application in. -- For another study that will vault. Looking at the aspects of -- It. Kind of big picture here is that wants doctor cables and his paper identified who was dying spy program. That it questions and they had -- -- the suggestion in their paper was that you have a bunch of unhealthy people that are doing things that are extremely. Physical. But there was this question about -- -- is that it isn't physical enough to cause this kind of these these kind of party evidence. I think that's the question are partially answered because we were talking about. Relatively small simple structures. That yeah we saw incidences where physiology was driven to extremes. Where -- we -- shopping malls you aren't high rises we weren't doing some of them right. More esoteric stuff that we do from time to time. So we know that firefighting now. Itself can be a trigger those things that can drive your cardiovascular stress high and that is going to induce those -- if -- -- person at risk. With these kind of underlying cardiovascular disease. And now becomes. The question that I have as -- also something about firefighting itself. That may accelerate the process. Maybe -- so there's something about firefight in the accelerates the the development cardiovascular disease. And that's where things like toxic gas explosions come -- play. And some of the other things that the -- -- that you hope to look at them -- line. Know that there's some interest now in the fire service by looking at some of -- changes that are out there. People are beginning in it interest in cyanide. Carbon monoxide -- of the of the toxic -- foreground. Those things have been shown in other industries. Because exposure to -- -- -- adult world -- chronic level have been shown close. Cardiovascular problems that -- -- -- problems. Firefighters are exposed to it every Tuesday. But there were exposed them on a regular day here's what all accumulation. And so what happens you know -- want to plug your -- -- those -- regular basis doesn't accelerate that process. These are all questions that media. Let's start with. I'm glad we get guys -- you on our site are -- news. Amazing to have been like you helping us now I want talked about one of the report that you just. If you -- -- -- few moments of your time was that. He recently document to -- -- simulators. A lot of those who do that what you find. It. Well traditionally. We come to FBI this season and we're we're very grateful for the opportunity common. In to the hot evolution -- that you guys have because it allows me to come in. With my regret most in team in. Do some real science is reserved sometimes we're discussing equipment some concentrating Boston's. Those kinds of things other times -- really setting up to do. A full won't study. This year we. We were here to test them. Some new equipment and Detroit must names -- because we have some things planned over the summer with some some light burns in the -- in the past. We have come out and monitor the thermal environment inside. In inside the -- over chamber. And it looked at the physiological response of people in the chamber Maryland instructor because they the most. That they believe the worst of that and so we need if we wanna know. What -- physiological responses that we need to know what the stress service. So we -- -- the temperature in the hand and we look at how it develops and we look at the course money physiology. Which. Lois stated it in a couple is that we publish what a few years ago where. We saw -- instructors would go away and -- -- this. Come out. And even on days like. But it is relatively cool the guys who come out that was years it was sent down to rest and there -- start on. Even though they're setting down. And what was happening was they were -- eat. The body was -- -- process. Or heat from the environment that they -- exposed. And when that came out and sat down. They lost their radiator reflect acknowledges. That he would -- moving their arms and legs and put moving blood -- to those extremities. They law and lessen their ability to shouldn't eat it all cool or older or want -- As -- dock in Canada but since the opposite of what was. -- itself evils that's unthinkable local law. What would really want analysts and I'm miles who we don't get that carried away but we want them to -- equipment that we want them to. To do what we call active wanted to be able to visit us and that's that's important thing that helps shed -- And you know -- We've seen some really. Seriously -- heart rates. And people deciding under under a tree in the state after from being in the can for thirty minutes as an instructor of that are in front. Where they've really gotten lucky and they'll come out and usually -- happen -- You know after -- and 45 times during the course of the day Brian go for this it's the student who goes in. Rotates through. Comes out is there one comedy it's not a big deal if these guys and there. There are level. They're up there front weather really relating to eat. And so it is a danger for them something that we work with now with the guys that. I -- deal and make sure that they understand. That when they come out -- can. And shouldn't shouldn't -- get out of -- here. We don't want the justice of them and we encourage them to participate in the overall. Of that in just to keep them moving and and doing things it doesn't take very long just a few minutes. Of that kind of Google -- mentioned that he. But you just didn't want it simple piece of information out there of -- service can make a difference for some poor guy or gal who. You're not trying to the reputation and sits down heart rate Johnson. Now there but there is -- god. Well it is and it's. All these got a little. -- little things that though we can contribute. We feel like this kind of are given date the fire department in the fire service and general. Gives us an opportunity to do things that we like this is -- -- do now are left totally devoted. -- fire service were and we established a firefighter -- that you reserve program. Indian university where among faculty. And we have graduate students that program -- now -- we do is focus on. The health and safety fire. -- we're we're absolutely thrilled you're here -- the ice images. All the great stuff you're doing for us here and and help and Allison and religious just being here and -- on our side it's nice -- -- that. This and really really smart guys out there trying to of the -- jobs that are. Well we appreciate the opportunity. My history is was with the athletes and frankly I've gotten burnout and athletes. There's only so -- self satisfaction and take got to help -- some run faster jump higher. But it I have to say that that we've been welcomed. In the fire service not only here in Indianapolis over the country. Now there's a formal name of the report is the physiological effects of structural our -- -- the -- physiological. Responsive group is about to express observed. -- -- president. Structural firefighting served in career professional firefighters -- big title. Oh well we'll cut them at a site there -- study group doctor brown -- can't thank enough for your time thank you are and you do of course thanks for the icing. I'm -- -- we're -- -- FTSE 2009. I'm here with doctor Jim Brown. I'll speak with -- against them.

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