Thu, 3 Jan 2013|
The free program from the Firefighters Support Foundation describes the powerful narrative-based approach to gathering accurate, actionable information from both cooperative and uncooperative subjects.
Is -- to ask you if you -- a bad decision to call the Jewish gentlemen. You are responding. Which called wanna hear about. But I ask -- given me the bad decision on that call because somebody withheld information from -- -- -- -- -- Would -- be the victim more than a victim's family and friends. Could be the -- the business owner only partially. -- possibly could be one of the many witnesses interviewed and it could instant response that you had to respond to. Welcome my name is Stan Walters I'm sure we -- this session on our service and law enforcement training. Effective narrative based field interview techniques that -- techniques for the field interviewer and first responder. I've spent nearly forty years as an expert in the field and -- interrogation. The workers include research -- Johns Hopkins University. NYPD. State Department Defense Department. Working with Johns Hopkins and -- college in studying the science of -- interrogation. My -- including military law enforcement park service military intelligence government intelligence. Training -- agents and officers the most effective tool for grinning as much information as possible and necessary to make any field critical information recovery. I don't maximize and that -- -- information. This next video we're just spend time looking at the narrative based field interview and how we can maximize -- -- Whether it's a crime scene where the depart seen over the from medical call what you -- -- response when information is critical. And what we do to maximize and information recovered from those interviews. You might be surprised to know that can restore the interviews with fatal. Papers for the interviews that fatal victims or witnesses -- -- direct result of the tactics and techniques used by the interview -- -- makes it fail to data manipulation. Or contaminate the subject statement. We're -- community based technique. How to use the children of your first responder -- 60% more information in each of those -- interviews and make effective decisions and the timely manner on the scene. If -- -- and the source of it is over sixty years of research in the field a victim interviews witness interviews. Memory. -- -- over and recall. That research has been done on the law enforcement feel open and fire service field in medical response critical instant response. -- you fun -- -- applicable across multiple different disciplines that limited to just one specific field. What are we doing this segment is a limited time -- using maybe a select example from one from law enforcement. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- A what you want from commitment to response -- from medical emergency. But the tactics are based on human behavior themselves. Which transcends -- transfers across all the disciplines. How do we maximize that -- information. And what is that science support is most effective interviewing people is different. Environments different settings. There's been extensive research -- the viewers who have the most effective techniques. And specifically what works and doesn't work in the interview setting. -- example -- -- researches over 600 videotaped interrogations taken in videotape from three different jurisdictions. The idea was to see which techniques were most effective in getting. -- attack as those interviewers. The researchers looked at every minute of -- -- they were sitting close to the subject whether they were touching that subject to the use accusatory style. -- -- -- -- -- -- Was -- personality specific within minimizing -- maximizing. Where -- using where nationalization of the conversation. -- using criteria based content analysis where you can control questions. And look at all those methods that each of the interviewers were using -- -- look back to determine which of those techniques had the most success. And those in each of those six and interviews which tactic -- -- if you're using which you get the greatest amount of detail. And it came down to basically. Two to three various tactics -- these tactics were used. Success rate was raised to over 80%. -- -- may not be a high number if you recollect at 80% chance of a walk in the interview room to the -- there was two basic forms. Or tactics used that created the most success interview room first -- the interview itself was narrative. Based. That's really the focus. Our focus of our -- to -- in this video is looking at the formula. In the success in their division and how to conduct this in the field interview. Gingrich -- details the second characteristic. Was that the interviewer adjusted. To this subject. Cognitive and. Any emotional changes. In other -- instead of having a set formula or having a steady -- like amorphous burdening you. You know endure -- we're gonna have to adjust to that victim witnesses emotional changes -- -- custody -- equipment they witnessed. Or what they have been that victimized -- wars are trying to assistant medical emergency or critical response. If you -- understood and connected with that subject. I understood what they were going through and then modify their tactics. Marked -- approach based on the response of that subject. When they did this as I mentioned the success rate. Was nearly 80% in the current information. So the tigers were gonna focus on these two periods what essentially is the -- eastern view. And and -- -- in the field you've seen this happen. Great -- and -- -- good piece of equipment or perhaps in the computer system or software. -- process -- system -- piece of equipment is too complex to use if it's too burdensome. What will happen. Well the people gonna start mucking with the -- historically in the department -- -- it or is that Tim the tool interiors is either gonna try to tweak it. I think that's what happens a majority of the interview process as we learn. It's become so complex and so burdensome. Debt we fail to follow along because it doesn't -- result and we start improvising. So what you found the -- technique it is very intuitive. It's very conversational. It also allows the subject the victim the witness. That the homeowner -- -- movies. At the same time you're recovering more information this person air and that they -- In some cases you'll notice. That -- -- be teaching this person how to use their memories better. -- of the -- -- learn more detail from them. Since been taking has been a teaching about thirty years full time in using this process. There's been at least four different scientific studies testing the narrative based technique and they found that -- at middle of the very minimum. -- it is -- we're capable -- 60%. More information near the methodology. As a side benefit that -- by changing -- -- interrogation side. You know you've got somebody on the scene you have the victim. Maybe a witness who delivered to ultimately used investigator. Originally -- the first responder. This process as a bonus. In -- it increases our ability to spot deception. By 68%. And what's best thing about that 60%. On average people only care about 50% of the deception occurs in front of them. Newspapers and doesn't occur that this has been tested several times looking at taking video for example. That piece of video and they got some different civilian population got point five people for law enforcement partners haven't watched video. It's a look at this guy -- -- as -- withholding information dating this papers and the time. Is tests -- judges -- testing with lawyers attest to with media law enforcement our servers corrections people schoolteachers. Wives kids. Nobody got papers and information. Very average and that percent except one group. That was inmates. Inmates can case somebody withholding information. Thinking 8% of the which proves the adage it takes one to know one. This process and innovation if you will help me fine. Those victims and witnesses who -- for whatever reason withholding or giving in listening misleading information to cost -- make that bad decision we talked about. So help me I think -- -- that is the interview were you get that these -- to detail what do we need to follow up point. So this also increased at a very efficient interview it compresses them at a time and energy we waste and higher return on -- and information. Let's take a look at the process and first -- look at the difference between what is in their division -- -- Vs the traditional accusatory vision and view and why the tour in conflict with each other. That's developing -- success. Is the end game of the interview that about 80% successful interview contains three factors number one. Have we gotten the maximum recovery information that's available from those victims or witnesses were interviewing. Number two. In my statements -- contaminated. A -- by the tactics of the -- -- Clean up contaminated statement from that source number three doesn't have you gained the cooperation compliant -- those subjects. Or victims or witnesses that were interviewing that -- their success of the -- The Obama talk about the 80% success rate than describing. The very big interview has the ability to retrieve information that you need to make all investing decisions. Whether it's -- its response where there's major fire. Where there is a hurricane whether it's disaster management has seen how -- solicit and recover the deep detailed information they need to -- A decision about the -- equipment deployment of services. Pulled out of medical personnel. But my interviews of the victims. On the scene of the witnesses that are there. One of of homeowners and business owners. That I can glean that did the detailed information they need to make an informed. Accurate that decision under pressure. In and critically it's a response. One of the problems that happens in most of -- tactics. Is we have an end in mind. And we intend to conduct as a result of that more -- accusatory. Or a jury contaminating. Type of of dialogue. For example. You didn't seem hit the car did you think you could translate in different settings but already you see that it's. Feeding deet -- -- contaminating the subject statement. That -- be more -- style. Unfortunately. That's huge roughly 66% of the time. It has the highest probability. Disrupting recall or disrupting -- campaigning information what's happening is that in that -- -- interview you're getting an ankle affect. You're not really. Getting information people you're getting to validate what you think has happened. That's who you're making less informed -- -- a decision in a good response. I have more narrative based interviewed him. One that solicits the help of that subject. Whether you know -- that this -- seen whether it's the first -- to major accident scene except her. My goal is to try to get some cooperation. To maintain compliance with that person. Because you know any you know -- to go back and again. I -- -- that the -- cooperate or any type of statement or any follow up or redeployment or to reassess cause purpose origins. Responsibilities after. Not even in the judicial setting and and it in the criminal interview to -- process -- -- -- not contending -- victims and and witnesses when they do make a statement. Or for example if it's -- notion that case. Where there's syncing issue -- -- -- and inspection. Facility of a building of a warehouse and we're looking at -- think you usually compliance. Scenario -- have you recovered greater information. -- listen Google's attitude of a minimum of sixty. Want to pursue it more. Information now you making more informed decision. -- -- get more. In efficient use that personnel and in staff without -- about chasing. Incomplete responses sending people off on -- -- as we can humans -- But it is a -- -- been seen since the bar scene -- got a medical straining. Now they controlled the interview will we'll talk about the end how to manage -- interview. I need these hills critical wouldn't let the symbolism of the victim can't well there's no response it now -- -- -- fame numbers. -- -- real world spouses there Rivera but wound friends tell me what's below what was he doing. What was his activities so that I can make it better medical decision and -- and get the best treatment this most effective for that patient. In debt that triage center. -- breakdown and take a look at that the narrative based interview. In how we use that in getting information rich. Statement. -- -- -- -- Now I can make people informed decision because you've got more details -- the decision is Maurice Acker is more efficient Indian game. Let's look at this -- interview and how easy it is to apply in the fuel setting not if it's too complex. You officers investigators here responders won't use it. This is a very intuitive process in the interesting part is it gains cooperation from the victims witnesses and sources -- you keep them compliant. They've got a good core people of information back and forth between your -- and your source. Let's talk about the narrative philosophy interviewed again. The origins of it. Forty years worth of work and research there's been a lot of the -- of interviews. It had a different -- again the law enforcement fire service field. Medical feel -- response. And they were looking and what -- viewers were having the greatest success. -- -- interviewers that got the most information gritty tale that we talked about that the you know fostering -- into a very simple. Form part philosophy. -- -- -- -- -- the heart of our segment -- really -- that narrative feature interview. There's going to be most -- before the few Matthew. First portion. The first element there's -- period of orientation. -- -- example orientation. And sometimes you're -- is being called developing report which is just fine but you know there's on some scenes and some call to respond to. That no matter who you're talking to that how hard you work you ain't never gonna have no report -- his open hostilities in the fight is on. But I still need to manage that. I can't give up I can't give -- because -- that these -- are still there so we got to find a way through that. So -- orientation let's -- for just the first few minutes you're talking. Refused -- -- -- -- -- use everybody seen that realistic crime show law and order. And the guy gets -- -- -- takes the oath of office you know takes us -- -- -- with and so forth. For the first few minutes and maybe -- it's an additional -- you've seen -- in hearings for personnel for example we see this in. -- re hearings for unemployment so -- at the same process. For the first few minutes. That department asked for the attorney when I asked him about your background. To me about your experience and so forth. And so what we're doing we're getting -- state they think feel -- that person. I'm getting a reading. If what -- emotional state can happen at the end we're gonna talk about how to manage that emotional response. What's your congress state -- a little idea of -- Intelligence. There's speech style and so forth so did they they cheer is as I'm in developing a conditional bond. Win this person talking to. Depending on the situation now fertility the -- officer. Interdiction case for example. -- orientation process may only be ninety seconds. This could be put -- critically as a response gonna meet -- disaster this could be just a short is fifteen to twenty seconds it's literally. If you -- to -- the person you've got to pay attention to their minds that an emotional status. Prison is gonna -- PayPal I talk to them and -- listen and filter the information. So do you get a sense that there there's speech equality is sent to their body language from the distance that there. Communication skills and so forth because that's going to be critical this this is we're establishing what we call a constant. Or -- baseline for that person. The end my next step is -- allow them to and they are -- This is a big change. They found in the in the there's effective interview was in there to process. Let's go back -- -- it to the court case civil case or -- case. What happened to the prosecutors said. Is that true on June 6 at the core walk and don't walk you saw in nineteen feet and then for Colin van driving eastbound and westbound lane -- -- swerving -- that's what's so -- cars crossing into the curb and crashed in the playground. Where the fish fry was -- -- saint it was Catholic Church injuring a bunch of people. If he did that. What would you hear from the defense attorney courtroom. Objection your honor and the grounds -- be what. Leading the witness. Debt the contamination we want to avoid death not in -- TV interview. And that's the different between the -- -- narrative style we're looking at in the narrative. As -- problems -- at all isolate my my my witnesses my sources. And I he's a very open in New York type comment. -- -- -- -- Tell me what went on. And you let -- at this point to that individual would have rule Iran. Narrate the circumstances event now we're gonna explode. This dirty process here is we -- we progressed to the video. Initially had to maximize and there -- you in how to them dead on the -- -- -- -- Once they're past the narrative -- we are the facilitator here we're not directing. We're not. Challenging we even if you suspect -- withholding information you'll let them go at this point because it's the next step up. The cross examination portion. When you follow you to ask him go back and tell me about this part I need to know. -- confused about. What you saw when you first round of the seniors all the smoke coming from the windows let's go back that part in this is where -- -- From a narrative unable to zero is that what's -- thing. In fine -- that data that's been overlooked or withheld. They're used to it -- effective tools. Two to cross examine that point with out. And can lead to something -- -- success things was not to contaminate the subject and maintain cooperation compliance. The final piece. Is a resolution portion. Is now correcting the mistakes do indeed the the update so I now have the clearest most concise. 80% success rate about the maximum information. In a you've got these because from the subject. I haven't contaminated an individual. -- the end game. In the field you made progress. Through these three points. Several times before you're finished if you Cleary each point -- you clear he should. And bury each -- think -- -- You go back and reset in reading their reading yet. So don't know a couple that have to be all or none that shot at one time and we'll talk about -- interviewed toward the end of the tape. Can't overcome that -- the subject because you can throw too much get them you're actually begin to contaminating -- -- the -- process. So this is -- are our -- -- formula. Orientation establish a baseline. Creating that report the dialogue with the subject. Facilitating them and I think the -- whether -- been the victim the witnessed a business owner whether it's the crowd around whether it's. He might even be interviewing local officials about the resources and the cures that they have available at the disposal how quickly you can reach haven't called on those resources. To -- and do they really have the resources to meet the needs -- to -- -- the situation. So it's still even there waiting as a supervisor. We're near reading as this scene commander. The engine. Following up on the unclear. Or the inconsistent or incorrect. Details that we've identified during their ration. India and the final clearing up -- isn't the most clear concise because information they want. Who will work through each of these points. How to maximize that -- -- seen as that first responder. Now mental time the narrative interview might take that -- we look at. This could be -- any link. In a a critical situation. You may have a limited time -- only five minutes for the dialogue. If it's over a longer period of time we have more availability you can go up to thirty minutes an hour to two -- to three hours. Depending on the nature of interviews so it it's not. Restricted as to how long have to be spent it has had to be a minimum amount konduz in the -- that's -- time. In the end if your objective is how much information can you get. If you're ever we're -- conference and in Las Vegas. I'm not a big gamer. I can lose at a dollar change machine. Okay I'm just not lucky. I'll play Nichols. Because I can take out over the Carlson and I we will spend twenty dollars at the movies. Right on popcorn movies up -- the nickel machine. My whole objective is how could make ten dollars worth -- last. Or how many plays can I get. A number lose -- ten bucks -- that. But I'm -- I was in Vegas recently that I've spent ten books and I think I've spent like two and a half hours clinical. Think at this just the same way how much can you get from your investment. If you if you -- -- have a five minutes to invest in the interview. Key how much information you can get from dad. I -- these situation how much information you get -- -- five -- If you got the time when the resources and you -- you can spend an hour to -- -- it. Did you you've done the same thing what they can gain is the amount of -- time. Is based on what your limitations are in understanding just selected based on that so my objective within -- mind. Can't -- any -- -- was I think if I'm interviewing victims. -- being a witness. Or sources. -- -- -- -- -- this April Anderson Apple's okay first of all. Headline maximized your can -- maximize the amount of information. That's the goal. -- much because as I can't. Limitations in. The information the goal is details. Deet tails. In -- -- -- -- -- More details. -- decision maker. Never feels like it had all the they never feel like they've gotten every single thing you need to make the best informed decision this -- a process that fusion that data to make that -- informed decision. -- response we're -- response unit union dictionary interview. As the case -- interviewing the victims -- you got mall in let's say that you have a large number of people who can very quickly. You can narrow the parameters of her interview and you can hit fifteen -- thirty people in a limited period of time just the -- in one piece. Another objective in anything victim witness or source depending on the scene and we'll look at other objectives here -- -- in -- moment. I need to get. Or to sustain compliance. Mike Michael is I want them -- on my side in it it worked at least neutral. I don't work what they're working at cross purposes to me and accusatory you create a hostile victim witness -- source. They're even -- you establish and strengthened so it what it does it solidify. His. And so solidify correctly so -- Compliance. Income that meant. From that individual. To continue working and talking with here. And so now that I I've got a better chance of getting accurate information. And they are committed to being on my side as opposed to working -- me and that nearly every interview my objective is the reduction. -- contamination. On the part of the interview. So there's no there's not eighty -- set -- timing and on. Working with an agency of the supervisors did it alternate view should never take more than twenty minutes. If they wanted to we -- time quit. What a horrific. Philosophy. The interview takes when it needs to take. When you've met these objectives of maximizing information whether it's twenty minutes or if it's two and a half hours. -- you've done the job that the game. You've got the next minute details to make an informed decision about placement personnel and equipment or who have followed when the incident following the accident scene -- on that. And just relax and -- this bill. Or maybe for doing environmental work and environmental spill. What's the routine of the in the containment -- hell it was built that. Keeping the comply to that person. So that they are they a source for the -- -- -- need some time to go back with the intent upon what you think about. Never assume you'll get to talk to the subject to second cut. Never make the assumption that well I'll get what I want now I'll go back later. Because we do what happens that -- -- issues out. And in between town somebody else -- -- can't make that statement. Somebody else is talking me into not cooperating with you -- clam up on you. And -- -- it will take off a lawyer up Oreo kill himself in the worst case scenario. The first one need to be your best when in -- it may be your only one. So whatever commit and you need to do it and -- these objectives. That's what you're in the game for maximize the return did you get from investment with the time the subject. Over the objective interviewing suspects or uncooperative subjects. The outcome we're gonna -- based on the mindset and the philosophy. If you philosophy of the interview themselves. One of the biggest problems that happens an interview whether it's a victim -- -- witness whether it's an informant when it's an applicant. Is this is the pre conceptions. By the end of your. Our government -- -- about the biggest problem interviewers have his opponent called preconceptions. That -- If you had your mind made up at the hand what it's going to beat it doesn't matter what the data tell -- If you -- your mind that this that my interviews sole purpose is to prove that -- right. Then you're not listening in the most imports go the interviewer at the listing process. So coming in with an assumption. And it's hard -- -- human beings to be totally objective in the first -- -- -- that. But if you come in with the the mindset. This person is going to tell me what happened or that they are going to tell me that. The fire or this spill over the incident occurred this way. It doesn't matter what the subject says we -- -- it. So we've got to be intellectually honest and to accept information that this subject is what it matches what we. Believe vs what the evidence. In this scene in the -- it tells us. And that it was specifically class with subjects in a park -- we we tend to be more. It -- can set these state giving subjects an apartment so originating out so it ended to -- -- the first thing our objective. Is not. A confession. Sort of like -- art. That's an opponent -- -- -- -- because so much information you would you agree with me. I can get a confession. And I can still lose a case. You -- -- that of all the cases overturned. By the innocence project -- -- cases overturned on wrongful conviction. When you for example DNA -- 45% of those convictions. Initially started because of a false confession wanted to for. That's because -- interviewers had eight preconceptions they will buy it from what we did the interview. -- the subject gives me an alibi statement. That I'll take that. I think -- held at all and what -- -- lock that down. So tight. It is the subject you plan to commit to it all got to do is go back and prove what is investigator if -- objective enough of the back brutalized. -- -- totally destroyed. -- of the televised. So -- -- if if the subject is not going to be cooperative and Drupal. I'll get is an in depth in his. -- -- so what that does. It helps me. Isolate. The deception no -- -- it's it's it's essentially is a lead development. Just -- Evans and work in the case right now involving a -- with some businesses our own. It's very interesting what. The -- -- -- of the fraud investigation is doing is trying to mislead or you could use influence into intimidate. That he's got these sources. Well the more he -- his mouth off and talks about how he's gonna lose to everybody is getting for -- He's literally telling me where his. Where he is vulnerable. The fact that he's floating -- between two different corporations. -- he has been mixing corporate private and personal funds. That he has been following -- and inspection done consistently and in some cases you -- -- not have -- working on housing. Buildings and construction. And he's defrauding people by conduct conducting. Construction in installations. Without the proper license if you're doing inspections -- if you're job is is -- safety inspections home inspections are inspections. This -- fortunately filling out the forms of compliance. It by his statements he's really hold me where to go look to find where he's been violated procedure -- code. In in the final element again. -- used to reduce. Contamination. Little earlier we talked about the difference in the narrative and accusatory interview and accusatory interview if I'm not careful. I'll give away my -- cards. I'll give away the secrets that I -- in my case. -- uphold less subject where he or she needs to create an alibi when he hears she needs to protect protect themselves. Because that it what happens we developed kind of an echo chamber. That's what happened to you with a pre conception on the part of the interviewer or the supervisor -- commander. Making this statement fit their conclusions and he's been -- that -- -- So this reduces that ability to contaminate so again first subjects and uncooperative subjects my goal is not confession. -- -- information. Decision I can get a conviction. Without -- confession. Because I've got enough information. Basically alibis payment based -- -- deception recently development can prove. That this person's actor or was negligent in in his the construction of the building. You mentioned in the installation -- -- this suppression system our system there was negligent in operation of the vehicle of the weapon. Cause that the death or whatever -- -- can isolate the -- so. The confession not the end game if if all things get a confession if if I live here and think -- -- Warner was leveled by incest -- up until it was like to ask watch. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- It's not confession. Data mine as much information as possible. Maintaining compliant. I think the leads reduce the contamination. So let's look at the narrative portion and now the mechanisms of how to reevaluate that this statement in its today toward you in the final decision. On maintaining the scene and working case and deploying resources. The -- based process. And before -- forward let me add one more thing here. We -- into the concept a confession. If that's not during game it doesn't have to be confession as in the criminals that. He could -- the homeowner could be the plant -- community and operator is that's her and that her confession or. That they are forthcoming -- -- acknowledging. Or they are. Truthful in their disclosure of information details. That they're not withholding something from you knowing that that piece -- so it again it's the focus is -- the confession but the information. Fully disclose details. So good for complying fully cooperate Vito rich statement even if it's not a -- case haven't got the full disclosure from that person talking to. -- application of this process. Does it is not time specific. If you're the first responder for example Robert call or shooting -- or domestic violence call and you've got near fifteen point second. And it would be a luxury. To have someone tell you what the subject -- which direction he did what vehicle -- -- driving. -- Chris is he still hosting that the technical information -- that you can recover. Very very quickly and keep the subject focused. All that information and details. That with that in mind there will be times you get to the scene you're gonna have subjects. Who gonna be excluded from normal types of behavior. This husband take a look at those folks that will -- give you very inconsistent. Reactions. And -- statements are. Content in other than by. By the interview but -- medical conditions or by other limiting factors in so you couldn't get marginal results from them. Not something -- -- -- hasn't necessarily been wrong. But just the nature of you're dealing with the processor -- is not gonna work. Very efficiently. On middle -- subject or. Clinically known as these psychotic. They'll get information. Dead -- never happen. Distant when you can get the calls -- nuisance calls it's always -- house injure. Poisoning my water. Or there they are. There's finally they're they're hiding in the -- They put a bomb on my car. -- -- you made this call you get there and it got an incident and you realize this is not really needs and it is part of the mental illness. -- that subject. And so now it's time to make a decision -- -- -- he referred to middle services that we need to get -- use of medical personnel and staff we need to talk to family. I need to look in the house who would medications are going on. And it tell -- signs. If you doing with these psychotic individual. -- describe people who don't exist conversation never happened in locations that would ever heard of before. This by the way is approximately. 1%. But human population. But they make up 16%. Of our prison population. So this 1% group. Has a higher correlation with the -- Our corrections facility just -- -- so you may also see their act. Fertility it's an arson may need not be and in terms of most buyers. Is being malicious -- the cover crime or for financial reasons it's because their actions are driven by their mental illness. In not -- criminal intent. As such the other group that you're do we have difficulty with is going to be the brain disease. Or the brain. Damaged if you will. There's going to be from -- things this can be from alzheimer's. They can be from dementia. It can be from head trauma. It can be from. Excessive drug abuse for example you get to location and you've got apart and cover the Packers -- -- -- operating at a place. And we are -- has -- got to come in and you know got -- got to the serious risk of explosion -- -- extensive property damage and so forth. This guy might be that one its operating. But -- -- -- in his own product. In you'll see here that the difference between the no disturbed in brain damage taken mentally disturbed is like there's a software problem with -- brain. Gate they keep -- the blue screen of death right. Brain disease there's a hardware problem. And -- some impairment. Physically with the -- A game to be head trauma it could be. He that didn't dementia. -- -- grosses glue sniffing paint sniffing may have. Welcome recent cocaine crack alcoholic -- and so forth. Telltale sign here it's interesting you -- have -- problem we have. The perception the movement -- time. So you're thinking about incidents and you need some sense of much of -- timeline of the -- of this is that the American medical response. Medical personnel they're going to come very confused. They think today is actually ten years ago. Or they're all home if label. People places and optics. Don't -- people wrong for example is he an individual. Any given the wrong name or think them in their relative windy or not. Doing named their family members as being this conspirator against them. Don't do this label object to think of -- -- -- for example. So those that this time to take you -- -- distinct differences and you need medical assistance medical intervention here. It if they are mentally. Deficient. We're talking an IQ roughly -- -- below. Not that it's sending to -- -- candidates. Probably know this group is they're more concerned about pleasing you and does this sometimes are present a -- gear. Uniform. Did -- vehicle -- police are far has man or. And -- it shows up they're more concerned about pleasing him being compliant. In not necessarily being. -- and did not trying to mislead you. But there -- capable of performing some of the basic skills that -- -- need them to perform to retrieve information and to be accurate. -- for those who work in the criminal cases this by the way this is where you get your highest number of false confessions from is for the administration subject. These are the folks also. Appeared to fire service who have some -- -- -- talk him into doing the act for them. Making the chemicals -- setting off that the homemade device four of us in the far or are there exploring. If you've got to completely different set of a type of fire setter or not compliant person here. In the final one and we're if there. Under the effects of drugs or alcohol. The obvious. Legal problems you have clear. With diminished capacity and -- -- -- what medications which drugs -- abusing. -- you have to rely on the grammatical skills for the pupil dilation for the slurred speech mortars killed except for a but the legal restrictions are -- going on. You may be at this point to get them to tell you what they've been using how much to show you where the medicine is or perhaps maybe the family can help -- with that. In an one that is we're getting more -- have had that candidate had to add this. Units of phenomena that is just. Devastating to both. Fire service. To the law enforcement -- -- through an interpreter. The time to deal with working with and turnovers is not to wait till 3 o'clock in the morning get a call and got to find someone -- all -- -- -- speaks Levine. Figure that out now. Fair where when I get a source. A couple of quick places you can do that go to the -- clerks office the court -- -- -- and they have an open a purchase order was -- called language line it's a couple of those law enforcement interpreting services. -- could also. Accident at the phone and -- international operator. And you can get online telephone interpret services -- -- you can operate in over you can contact with them and they can they have almost every language. On the face of the earth has spoken so you can at least. In that hot situation hot scene -- respond. Can't access. Quickly to -- all interpreted through. Telephonic services. In which you need to record by the -- massive distance record those types of calls. If you're talking if -- interviewing through the interpreter. -- concerns of cultural and go on here. In -- since some cultures it's not a matter of right -- with -- justified to do it. So you've got -- and not only social issues but you get language issues somethings don't interpret correctly and understanding of right in so you begin to lose. Good control and management of your interview. So that exclude a group is that the noticed or making -- 1%. Who are put confused about identity and tough and so forth the brain disease. Where there's -- physical damage the brain itself. It's anybody get a report timeline and these two groups also will not be able to perform basic problem solving skills that you ask. During any normal interview. -- -- efficient with their. Over the compliant behavior. Don't forget to take a look at an effective drugs alcohol on the legal limitations. Again check with through your legal experts within -- agency. About investment in the engine to document that and it should be documented. And didn't think it hit it and -- start working on a policy about how you would work through interpreters. So what we have the statement we now have to evaluate. Our objective again have I've gotten -- and information. And -- contaminants statement about maintain compliance. Who want to look. Out to glean that information. And make an assessment of the value. If we're meeting those objectives. During -- -- process. I would look at -- in product. In the value way. It's is that you have I've gotten all the information to them after is that a complete statement. So if you're if you're on the scene -- you need to talk to the homeowner about the incident maybe you're looking at an accident were. A construction site where there's been -- -- ball. And I need to know what was going on tell me the transition -- how to lie no. Did and getting that information and who have valiantly kept. So -- -- assessment will look at that formula in just a few minutes I wanna look for the presence. Of clusters of behavior. This can be horrible number wolf on the subject is subject this case and use -- as universal term. Because this season is have a -- -- terms are subject could be the victim. Subject to be the witness -- be could be the informant. Subject could be. -- give -- the family members of the medical patient -- -- the patient themselves so we use that as universal term here to make make -- of these -- more efficient. So looking for clusters from the subject. This suggests that there is something missing. Or incorrect. For some reason felt necessary to withhold information from any again -- malicious is subject this case could be the victim. And the victims embarrassed because he did something they think was silly. Whether you're embarrassed because they think that you know that you're gonna -- harper being stupid. You know it that people would differ reasonable information so to assessment -- I'm looking for her cues. Or clusters in the statement. The computer in the narrative that says this is the point I need to follow up and cross examination for a definition of a cluster. That's -- or more symptoms. Person that's. Or response. Two more symptoms people won't generate random behaviors. Single week heaters don't mean anything. Single behaviors and his speed pollute they can be again because of an important pre conception parking and if you're reading something in Africa for example Huckabee. Honest to god I don't really know what happen. I can remember why it was there. Like having me relapse. And an honest to god and a camera more of their that tells me create something wrong -- that point. Or it might be a huge -- will be -- non verbal behavior. Did you see him when he was when he pulled equipment out of storage facility he engages safety equipment well you know we're going we talked and -- -- -- -- I can't imagine why it. So you've picked up from you saw an aversion behavior. -- -- -- So that would -- -- -- back clustered just like there's no single private behavior means or do you live. -- to come it's the -- -- in totality it typically innocent behavior. So this helps me find my follow points it helps -- find my follow up dialogue. So now. Not wasting time by carpet bombing everything the persons as you know going through you can determine patients for five minutes may be that lucky. But I can quickly -- identify. The problem point. What needs to be follow what needs greater attention. -- the presence of a cluster. To report symptoms. -- -- to speak to more verbal cues. Two more non verbal cues or -- mixture of the two. Always think in the groupings random things occur. That also reduces your workload. It shouldn't have to to micromanage everything. Week. The person -- -- to keep interrupting that contamination. If -- Have suggested there is stress over the issue of the car but something about stress. Just because the subject Indians under stress. Doesn't mean they're maliciously withholding information doesn't. Can you see the homeowner you're interviewing them under stress it during the pars. Can you see -- -- -- and a major accident scene the administration is terrific -- -- just saw. Sure the could be the stress of this guy he is the shift manager and a late night trip. -- the fuel tank field of a gasoline company and he's responsible and hit it and he's. In charge of the fuel when having who's still happen. The -- under stress. Doesn't mean they're going to be malicious. But I need to -- the -- there. I need them to be compliant cooperative with me so I have to help them or -- that stress response. Don't think about that issue through the -- identified stress. And also within the places. Where there could be missing. For example -- things like after all while. The next thing a new low and behold out of nowhere all of a sudden end to describing a timeline. And you see them skipped through the timeline and the skip points -- details. Those missing detail and possibly. Give -- that the possibly deception. Just the decision -- -- doesn't mean you're being deceptive. I'll let people under stress -- not -- -- deceptive the deception in behaviors are any type of stress. You most likely find it if it's there you. And maybe withholding information. -- in this statement if you find four or more. -- -- -- So -- in the near regularly until the whole store overthrew. And you get you spent about four spots like thinking like an ethic -- taken for college or preschool. You -- arena this example mr. goes back and looks for points in your resting that says he or she definitely she's talking about right here she's faking it. The end if you got four more of those that you need to slow down. You're not a time maybe the essence here and be happy to root compress this but if you move too quickly. You -- this. You -- those points and you gonna make poor call poor decision on the scene about the next step deployment of equipment sector. So if you got four more something else is -- of Akron U and there's another trauma there's another concern debts intruding here. This caused a problem in your yours questions may be too broad. Sure costing too much you may need to refine. The question drastic will look at helped refine it great that process so this is. Party that is based systems -- looking for. We got us to the values. Also there were looking for that tells me that -- to judge the quality and it brings to the statement. So the second set of values. Includes these elements. Other values were looking for -- to make sure you've gotten the best thing possible. The most reliable statements we get it. Is when we won two to three different. Turns if you will or variations through. The -- sample. Now this is a -- depending on the situation. Depending on the type the case -- -- used three samples to levels of difficulty. In other words just don't sample the interview one time give any time limitations this is seen specific. This is based on what your time limits and conditions could demand. If it's -- hot critical incident. In you've got one path and it make it -- damn good pass. If you've got time we can go back and recover more information. To really make -- dead in my -- or state then you can hit to his return but we're gonna change. Percent two little difficulty -- -- changed that. So the -- for example are talking about here. Recent work and -- case involving a girl a convenience store. First responders came in -- robbery of a victim of -- in his sexual assault. Effort for sparking an end to her spot tell me what happened -- -- -- -- -- any medical help tell me what happened an extraordinary story. -- what it was a policy. Says this will make sure this guy gets -- on anybody get away with -- somebody does this to someone. Go through and tell me what happens I get a word out of this palatable enough to locate him go through -- -- what happened so -- your second pass. -- -- -- -- -- Are you okay anything. I'm gonna take pictures -- here to photograph the scene I'm here to collect evidence would you walk with me walk through and show me what -- -- look what -- we've got three different types of all of narratives. But three different types and -- so they've sampled her statement in this case it worked out. Three times. It's and now they can -- he can. Entities or. Didn't tendency is to. Reassure. Any clearer as to what you might -- the first pass you can pick up again in the second and third pass so if you -- -- walk -- -- time. Trying to get two to three different turns it. Didn't have to taking and where. -- we're we're talking here needing. In a maximum five -- six minutes. But 88 and interdiction case -- wrote officer. Traffic stop interstate we're talking. Ninety seconds to minutes. Easy to pull it depends on the situation in your -- restrictions. Now the accused. Do we look for percent of missing information incomplete responses who forget we talk about the involve -- verbal. Accused that could be a shift anger in relationship to depression and -- and -- -- bargaining war. Compliant behavior. You can -- you can hear the emotional shift in the person. The end or you need non. Verbal behaviors. You facial expressions. Don't forget also an -- this some people and stressed become very very spill. Connect almost locked down that is justice significant. As a person is moving and jumping into after a lot. So it's a shift from that baseline we talked about an orientation. You're seeing a change. In its associated with the topic. -- two key. So when we go to cross examination. That the topic and talk a little bit more this -- problem. -- -- For example in the robbery case -- is used this and actually occurred. First responder. Get the first statement and there was a a couple minute break. Or several minute break until the next ecumenical -- it. There's a little break in and that in the I'm seeing that came in so if you if you are going to do more than one -- just don't bang bang bang. Do statement. Divert him for a minute take care needs bathrooms cigarette soda doctor pepper recent cut whatever it is and then -- again. Yankees if you trying to clean your harvesting that information. -- put a little time at -- -- -- in between each of these if you're gonna go the full blown repetitive route. You're doing one we've got to make that person do the best. -- -- -- -- The talking about document in his statement. You know there's a lot of different policies and trains -- thought all iron on note taking. I can tell you from a scientific point. Whether it's a fire case was. Law enforcement cases -- -- Detailed note taking is one of the most destructive things interviewers -- One of the most destructive processes because in your stopped communicating. Stop listening to the subject and it breaks that continuity. If it is that critical that you -- haven't worked a word. Abide by state statutes here this is where I would have my recorder in plain view. In as the man go ahead and document the statement but -- it. Brilliant -- something need to work -- and procedures you talk to legal Eagles about first he could turn State's statutes whichever jurisdiction in -- about. Single -- consent but in this case. I usually -- digital recorder and -- -- it in plain view of the and they understand that I am taken statement. So it that the written note taking root destroyers to the process and despite your claims. -- had taken notes will miss the studies have looked at we missed 50% of the information. In note -- and what we do right as about 30% error rate. So consider that as a way to improve this -- process. In -- and details. So now the narrative itself. Not such as protecting here. In the robbery case. Did you walk and seeing different -- -- what. Tell me what happened. They're using an open ended near -- type of question. That started the dialogue the starvation and then again we look for into the subject just tell me what happened tell -- -- -- your story. And I facilitate. As they -- running to that statement. -- when I'm looking port. So let's look at the samples. In the levels of difficulty. In that actual structure itself all of this narrative recovery. How we get that details. So -- -- assessment that we want to. If we can't depend on time and patience try to get three statements. Again this could be at the scene of you got a major spill we've got. Huge incident -- arcing -- after seeing the Roberts has suggested. Maybe got a fatal accident scene for example. The reason -- Changing sampling. Is a process that decision was called reality monitoring. If you ask the same question -- stimulus question again again and again. Don't be surprised if you keep getting what. -- -- -- And changing his in -- it's like. Like sampling. Sampling water I want to make sure that I used -- for different sort of -- sampling techniques. Or sampling like after a spill and -- -- sample different -- of the ground and use different types of rampant rate. That we're looking at so the first sample was going to be the very near debates since you're opening sample. The -- narrative based us -- example the risk here in the challenge for the subject is very minimal. This is what builds that compliance -- says whatever goals it goes cooperation. In the have a sense you're concerned I'm listening to you what you say -- of value to me. It encourages that. The second sample I want now back and look for those -- those clusters we mentioned. In pinpoint -- curious as needing a little more attention. And so -- opera called attention to those serious in a lawyer asked questions dead or more specific think of like using Google. If you -- Google work plumber coming -- would you get. Hundreds and thousands of them hit right if Google plumber. Jefferson County -- hits when I get. Well this extortion -- United States which one if I Google plumber Jefferson County Kentucky which is Willard and it's like it. Since about last are getting smaller and I'm becoming more violent if Google plumber Jefferson County Kentucky -- -- water heaters. Think that this is like Goodling somebody's database. The more specific. Than that -- The more accurate consistency -- response. So that's what we're changing the sampling process the -- it was the first search. The cross examination narrowing it down to -- prior to getting the specific he doesn't want so now on make an informed decision is the commander. Or -- -- commander or as it has emerged response commissioner. So having that retail so this -- -- this is going to be sampling a little bit differently we're gonna look at the things like it was -- monitoring site found taste touch smell. Third sample a look at emotion. Thought our first sample. Going to be that the narrative based -- -- -- the that there is where we have told you about first response. To the interview -- tell me what happened. For the first response to the Robert tell me what happened I can -- this bill -- could be an after action scene tell me what happened. That you can change anyway you can change -- and say. Tell -- about the phone conversation you had to -- the board meeting were just -- Describe tell me what happened until the less -- attend the last inspector was here was inspecting your system war -- -- inspecting for code. And I can use that as distance but it says. Relate to -- events. And I let them talk. Did you your job is to not pit -- but. To facilitate and let them continue to dialogue if they bogged down you can hurt by being what happened. Or what went on next. Week in and use -- to say go ahead and finish. If you have questions you hold those -- -- later. Because if you -- this person in the train of thought it blows that recall process it's we're looking for. And get that first sample -- first tablet -- this is can be verbal if necessary. It can be written. Written to club more -- -- more effort people don't write is clearly and as much as we wouldn't they were speaking in these labor intensive. If that's the way that you can get that that's unacceptable it's still applies. So if there and everything and let them talk don't interrupt them. Let them give it is -- to -- -- Then again if you wanted to document it not to cheat sheet notes or -- how much whose gun who shift Tommy who just remind myself. -- I might do. But I'm not gonna go into great detail is -- -- listing my train of thought someplace else and -- subject is also distracted from a leverage so. That's really handy. -- An incident where a family member of the came in numerous -- on in home and at that people on her broken hip or something like that are there appears to be neglect. And I might excesses -- that defend -- okay. Tell me what happened when you came home game let's see that we get the call it -- in the afternoon just for a time point. I might have to describe. Start at noon today and Michael always threw everything happened the house until the point you found a local LeRoy. At the bottom of the stairs. And I'll have them go ahead of the event. It's called -- preamble. Or -- ways of doing that is that helps establish my baseline I orientation. Warms them up. I gave details -- building compliance. And I can also see when they moved to a problem spot it's easy to spot those changes are clusters were looking for. Now won't take them two -- to do it we're about that. But just put a little -- of the -- particular working in an incident itself. We had to be where we were going were -- to me about the transactional car. Some time you've been interesting to -- -- about the arrest. But to the big day in his excuse for the first responder who stopped him. Try to tell them it was a new car there was still filling out the paperwork that's -- didn't have a license plate. And the title a receipt and so forth in the -- box that's what caught the attention the trooper in Oklahoma -- -- a commitment today look at this story. And it's essentially those parts. To -- that trooper suspicious. People -- in the -- over as that first responder and so try to get him to our preamble than -- -- threat. Don't interrupt them. Let -- relate the events. If they hit bogged down. What happened next didn't tell me what where do you go from there or than what you do OK and then what. You can interrupt you -- lined -- contaminating them. So -- the weight -- you're just a facilitator that if you have someone -- uncooperative. And that's gonna happen -- for many reasons. The spill scene the environmental disaster scene the -- -- The -- -- and so forth. You may have used for the call a negative interview and this is -- last ditch effort try to be creative. I'll ask questions -- -- to -- you ever seen him before. And so where do you work. Have you dated this person. What did she like when she does. Have you ever -- mr. Johnson's car -- that the -- -- you're -- you're living in history over the back of his property. And I'll ask questions in August and specifics they -- it answered yes or no don't explain. -- have a document. Just yesterday answering that ought to do -- prove they lied to each of those point I don't tell what I have an answer specific questions. It's an out there in the dark they don't know what information -- possessed and don't assess. So once I let them run that first narrative. Determine what happened and -- the accident scene described the inspections the -- meaning xetra. -- my my first statement and now I start looking for specific points in that statement. So -- -- followed -- now my level to. This weather begin to look at this point and use follow up questions to -- -- each of those points. To glean out and -- -- missing information. Short level two looks like. After tennis level two analysis this is my most favorite -- I'm very -- about this. Something about human memory. In the way it recovers information there's been -- did -- research on victim interviews. By some experts collect some -- -- Raman in a process called cognitive interview. -- focused and every search initially on how to get details from victims and witnesses specialty or traumatize. And looking that was what was working and how to not contending that the victims that they thought this would apply if you're on the incident scene of the crime scene. How this would apply. -- interesting things that's on -- research back in 1986. They had the person go to the event in reverse order. Had them go in reverse you don't say -- every story backwards you know if it wasn't that. K I know Tommy said the -- -- shock incident before around the bar. What was going on right before. He fired a shotgun and -- -- -- what was he doing. Tell me that party and I'm a little confused you know what was going on. You city was -- the devil -- the jukebox is picking up all. Quarters off before the lady was screaming -- Corning was threatening -- that -- and tell me what was going right before that. At a beauty of this. What they discovered with victims and witnesses. Is it like it turned to the brain into very analytical. And -- -- -- that here we -- weak wrists. Became very very content rich got really good details and you weren't talking you were contaminating them. -- again I haven't. Use -- stock it. What I thought was that this would be neat I can use this with subjects who deliberately trying to mislead me. People are misleading you they got more confused -- start to fall apart it was easier to spot the deception. Well that's now been picked up and there's been four different studies looking at that. And found it increases our ability to spot -- deceptive subject up to 68%. Approves ability to find those specific spot so it's -- two pronged effect if I have a traumatize victim. Or witnesses. I can and it used reverse sequence what happened just before that -- and before that in I get a really good deed held statement. If the person happens to be. Malicious and -- statement. It makes that handout. So -- when they're doing this just picking a point and work in reverse order. In eagle and what have before they had to -- that part if they start to struggle. What do we do we stay quite that. Donor dropped this good -- the bad guy. Two and erupted because you're contaminating them and you wanna keep your mouth shut at this point like you're -- with a -- -- pre conception and them. So YouTube that continues if they get confused a good stroke you want them to work -- -- it if it's the victim witness you're going to. -- the statement -- So there personally in I've taken knows what my -- -- or bring and how much and so -- places where the question of notice. When they go back this -- again they tend to hit those same spots. They did the first time through snake that confirmation. -- -- -- -- Can you keep consistently seeing reaction. In the Robert told you about in the convenience store. They saw the victim. Was a consistent on one part of the crime but she kept having a problem on the second part of the crime. And that's where the investigators begin to focus. Later we learned debts were she made a part of the story. It was trying to blame part of that -- not all and the bandit switching back on some of the money it's a -- -- standout it sits at. That particular point. The other element that you can use. Is now think of how the five senses. And make a look at. Sight sound taste touch smell. So I would ask for example in the -- K the super important that makes sense to you. What were his exact words when he ran the war was -- action would be thing. It's always in the bathroom heard earlier in a war I've had with. Consultant on par cases. Total -- arson case. In that we haven't over the subject is ahead and describe where he was standing city was at the senior colleges that we need that kind -- We're standing ahead and describe to you with the building look like. How many windows -- as a windows. Had to describe to you when he got there which when did you see the planes coming up. What color were the planes which when did -- see the smoke coming -- what color was the small that he saw. And what the subject does not realize they're doing they actually giving -- time -- the fire. It's -- the only way you can is seen. -- involvement. The spread of the fire that was particularly those particular smoke hasn't exactly the time and it put him at the -- -- Before. The part of part responded. It hit the fire suppression system or -- -- all report exhausted. So you can have a look at vision you can have them -- smells. What did you smell or taste and work and -- -- a case alleged kidnapping case. And it is this Sunday talk about holding his daughter -- his legend holdings donor's arms and he must do something was baby daughter. It was so vivid for him because that was the biggest problem in the story that's where he broke. -- gives the details we've got a child kidnapping and covered up social neglect of the trial which started at the body was disposed. So is sometimes to uncover those wonderful gift so it and -- is prevalent in this site. Called reality monitoring only thing -- owned. Possibly -- If that isn't you know maybe if in but we have a -- they can -- particular taste within them out because of noxious gas or poison gas war inhalation of certain smokes and so -- What they heard. What the -- popping when -- -- burning what sounds how many shots of the year two this sounds a specific sequence. So bill -- that Google search and going down -- -- here. And getting -- information. We've got the narrative. And went to tell me what happened. Didn't Google search a little bit deeper -- reversal process. And go through the timeline -- and reverse sequence didn't peel off -- looking at sight sound taste touch smell. -- a third level we can look at the content emotional state of the subject. Let's take a look at our formula -- what we learned so far of the narrative based. Feel old. The interview. A first element was again the orientation process. Or my goal here number one was establishing. A -- or. What this person understand that I am interested in their statements that I value their comments -- either observations. And to understand that there what the -- -- have is critical reason decision maker. -- the same time I'm establishing a sense of a baseline. That. Or that the clinical technical term is calling and establish a constant. For that person's behavior. I think -- -- a quick assessment evaluation of your speech behavior the body language intelligence and so forth. The meat. Then is that narrative portion. A goal here is to data mine as much information as possible. This is the information harvesting. Legally described how much information cannot harvest. At this point. And the subject allowed to narrate it's an open ended question. I don't interrupt. -- -- watching. For those changes. Or we defined as calling clusters. Which it affect the overall values statement. This is my source -- on the follow up when I go to cross examination. It's like the attorney in the -- you've made a statement is nationalist -- back and talk about. This is where we sit and we can challenge or. -- the statement we can use a reversal. Of time. Tell -- what happened just before then what occurred before that what was going on before that. I can also asked them. Describe to me only site. Stimulus. I -- have some describe this is called reality monitoring by the way it. Like it is -- these things that they hurt. Voices conversations. Sales pops numerous shots explosions. I can have been described just what they hate it or what they smelled. Or. It -- touch sensations he. That he except -- Final element using cross examination is -- we're -- -- role reversal. It is is just as it sounds. And -- have the person changed reverse the role. If that is being themselves. I'll have been described the events from the point of view of the victim. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- And -- telling you know her well enough. Use this to your buddy you guys play golf together you go fishing together what would your body do. How would he act. The argument you know what that closing procedures -- at the plane into an inspection -- -- Go through that inspection. What would somebody do -- the right procedure. For the closing we're shedding often in cutting off and diverting the house. It hadn't -- from the rules of that individual person. If somebody salt you -- -- in this of those small variation is this is called an omnipotent view but it's the same thing reversing the role. If somebody was watching you go through the closing procedure. Would date -- -- -- -- you did. What would -- -- you do age you went through the inspection. How what they describe what -- do. Says looking from someone looking ahead so we have our orientation a narration. Sure got our our first sample now we're testing it we're Google little information. And now when we find what we want it Google it. We've we've found what we want -- stopped on that page. And we solved the problem that we're looking for the -- -- I've found the plumber. Doubt that see what I want to overdo it I found the problem. The missing information. My question has been answered. But why did this occur this way why -- events transpire like this. What did the -- really see the united resolved any conflicts. In the inconsistencies. In the I -- -- clear. Perception of the events. In the I can make my informed decision what's my next step is that commander. Is detective. Is a first responder in your addiction to a search not search except for. It'd be able to articulate. This is shocking the sports -- that it's that this is taking the interview and making it into the decision making model. -- an established the probable. Direction that the describe the events. Cross examine that tested and challenged -- got all the gaps fill a dent in -- Google search of information. Now have a clear view perception of the issues the events and what happened and have closed the loop with a resolution. If it's a criminal case this means -- -- the elements of the crime. It was a case of negligence. For -- -- at first responder for a two coincident of course spill whatever. Didn't. I've cleared and who's responsible of answered that question how the events transpire. So -- that closes that -- this is playing in game. The next information. On the informed decision. Based on recovery. -- about the time component is its final step. It sounds like it takes describe purely to -- his pick wherever. This could be done a very short period of time. Let's take interdiction officer for example who's sitting on the interstate NECs that vehicle. Come past make a decision to stop. Talk interact with the passenger in Iraq for the driver and decide within two to three minutes. I got a problem here we've got to -- the contraband get drugs it's time for search stop calling king. We're talking two to three minutes maybe five minutes outside. Tim and I mean usual this could be the first command Ernestine you've got. A three -- situation. He's -- decide -- to the building. The people just left the building what part of the -- ball what. Assets or risk. Or or hazardous which -- -- to my staff. Player personnel to the community where -- -- -- resources we're talking it is a response time in minutes. But this case we can get -- down gathered together 92 decision. -- here hearing -- here it is I can make another assessment is a good point here. This is not static -- have to be only one time. There's new information comes in as a scene commander. Is -- information -- -- -- -- could run that same decision making model again and refine and reset your decision so it's a fluid. Process if you need to. You can incident -- problem. Glean information we have personnel. Information for the subjects reassess. We deploy again. To move your assets and -- your resources. So if it doesn't it's not or -- the -- and homicide this could be. 23 days ten to twelve different interviews. Prediction officer to people in the -- -- the -- the interstate. Five minutes. It's quick decision making model even up to that there's a 2030 minutes this the 32 decision's gonna -- deploy resources. Or -- long involved case. Each is adapt I'm expendable -- time compressed.