Mon, 14 Jul 2014|
Fire Engineering reports from a live burn conducted by Underwriters Laboratories during testing in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
[MUSIC] We're gonna take a look at fire behavior and what happens as fire departments around the country attack those fires. So they're giving scientific data so we can look at that. Take a look at the research. And we can actually see if what we're doing is correct, if we need to change our stra, strategy or tactics, how we apply water, where we apply water. And the underlying premise is about firefighter safety and the safety of our citizens. Alright it is July the 1st. We're out here with UL. We've got car horns blasting. The house behind us, Steven has rigged up and ready to go, whatever from UL. What are we looking at here? What's the first burn gonna be about? Well we got it all wired up to measure what's going on for a fire that starts on the second floor. It's in the knee walls. Once it gets in the knee walls we are going to simulate an entry crew make an entry. Making their way up to the top floor, make it to the front of the house not finding fire, then we are going to open the knee walls behind them. See what happens there, see how things go. Monitor conditions, and then we're. We're going to get a second test out of this, where we're gonna have fire coming out of the A side and the B side, in the half story. And we're gonna go ahead and look at what happens when we give it a quick hit from the front. And then go ahead and attack it up the stairs. Outstanding. So it's a really common problem on the fire ground. The fire's on the first floor. Crews come in, push it up, right into [UNKNOWN]. Blast out both sides. So. Exactly. Most [UNKNOWN] fires don't start in the [UNKNOWN]. The usually start from the floor below. So we're gonna simulate those actual real world conditions. See what kinda fire we get up there in the attic. And find the best way. Make it tenable for us to get inside and extinguish this fire, safer and better for everyone. Well, it looks like you got a great house Steven. Eric, great job, this is Chief Eric [UNKNOWN], Batallion Chief, City of Milwaukee, he's the host city, and I course everybody knows Steve Kirber, from UL, and this continuing progress on the attic studies, so we'll have more to. Follow in the next day and a half. And more, more fires next week, right? Absolutely. Not a more professional fire department out there to work with. That's for sure. Outstanding. Thanks, Steve, thank you, Eric. Thank you. we're, we're, we're letting this thing, we're letting this room constantly reignite. And we're, we're monitoring the migration through the [UNKNOWN], through the rest of the building. What we're pretty consistently seeing is a couple of things one if you hit it from that B side you get it kicked back pretty quick. Ten seconds of water. On the fireground you would probably give it a little longer than that but for the sake of the experiment we're just doing ten. But you get it kicked back pretty good that would make your entrance and your push up into the second floor of the attic a little easier but what we're seeing again and again is that if you don't make that interior push this things coming right back at you. There's a kind of a classic example. You can't get the angle you need. Most of the fuel in this room is to the left of that window as we're looking at it. It's really hard to get the angle that you would need to complete that suppression. You can kick it back. You can cool the gasses. You can stop the thing from cooking off really fast. But you gotta up inside on this thing, and complete extinguishment. So, and the other thing we're seeing, like the second or third time we tried it, usually when it, the first couple of times we knocked it back. When you knock it back, conditions got better everywhere in the building. That's a good indicator that most of your fire is right there where you can see it. The third or fourth time we did it, conditions didn't get much better at the other vent holes, that tells you you've got a whole lot of fire between what you can see... And what's coming out the other windows. Take a look behind you now and tell me [INAUDIBLE]? All right. We're seeing that, that's, that's the, that's the knee wall fire that, that fire and the original fire when we got up into that knee wall. And obviously that's the point of origin in the knee wall. So that knee wall, that roof immediately above that knee wall is collapsed and failed. And so, and that's kinda classic sign, too. Alright, and you can see, now you see up high, that fire migrated out of the knee wall, and into the interstitial space, the void space at the top of the peak. So you got fire throughout the whole void space now. You got fire in the peak and the whole knee wall, in addition to what's in that room. So this is a loser at this point. Alright cause even now, even from your interior, you're really not going to be able to get to all your points of origin. You're not going to be able to get on top of this thing. So you're gonna see this migrate all the way up there. You know there are couple of joy spaces there. It's gonna completely, It's gonna keep starting to collapse that roof. You're starting to see a little bit of a push. Keep in mind there's no fuel on that third floor. That, that half story, that A frame part of the building. There's no interior fuel there. So everything that we're seeing cook off now, that's just the, the, the building itself. That's the studs, the walls, the rafters. You're getting a little bit from the asphalt shingles, but not a whole lot. So that's a whole lot of fuel, just the wood in these buildings, whole lot of fuel. You're seeing that your original exit point that was bi-directional when it was just a room and contents fire and the interior door was intact and the new wall was intact. That was a bi-directional vent opening. Things were coming out the top while the fire gas was coming out the top. And it was sucking air. Now that's completely an inlet. You got more ventilation in other parts of the building. Than you have at that point. I mean you got a little bit of wind here. This aint a wind driven fire by any means. But you got just enough wind coming across that building to, sort, of seal off that opening. And that's why you see all of that push coming out of the roof. But this is kind of classic example of how these things cook off. You can see other points in the roof where it's pushing out of the shingles. That, that kind of gives you an indicator of what's gonna fail next. All right, we're gonna hit it from the A side with the deck gun. See what kind of impact we can have there? Because as you can see the push coming out that window, it is starting to get darker, it is starting to get richer. Alright, his aim got better. [INAUDIBLE] so he's making a big difference in order, so he's making a big difference right in that portion of the building. That's that contents part but he's not reaching that stream can't reach all that fire in the back, that fire in the back is actually in the void spaces it's in the interstitial spaces at the top of the roof it's in the kneewall. So most of that, mean while in that, ceiling is in tact in the front there, so that's not really having much of an impact, back on your fire. I think that's a part of this transitional attack that we under appreciate. Cause it can tell ya a whole lot about where your fire really is. if that was a contents fire at the front end of the stable end that would have gone down and stayed down. The fact that it is coming right back at you even without the view we are seeing or the b end there is a whole lot of fire that we are not seeing from this end. So there are a lot of advantages from the. If it makes a big difference, you're on target. If it doesn't, you know you got more fire than you think you had. [INAUDIBLE] I didn't catch the radio traffic there, Barbie. I don't know. They got, they got a monitor. We got a monitor at the top of the stairs that should be able to hit some of that. This kind of speaks to why we get in trouble in these kind of fires. We've been watching this one develop over a long period of time and we have the you know the advantage of seeing it from the very beginning. But when you get these things in the middle of the night, where they've been doing this without anybody watching 'em. And we pull up and you saw how fast that thing transitioned. Once you started to lose that roof, you went from something that looked real easy. You're going to handle this in a matter of seconds to something that you can't get control of, even with large caliber streams inside and out. We're still having a hard time controlling this. And that's because the interconnected voids and all that fire in the interconnected voids. It's really hard to get water on what's burning. So they've got a pretty good knock on it now. Mostly what we're seeing here is shingles burning, a little fuel left in the original fire room. Now they're going to give it another hit. You know, as soon, it's important to point out that we're passively shutting off the water sooner than any of us out on the street ever blew it. We'd keep moving that nozzle around and hitting this thing until we darkened it down a little better. We're, you know, we're trying to measure the impact of a limited amount of water from different angles of attack and, just to make some comparisons. So it's important that we time the, the flow. Make sure it's consistent for each try that we make. I think the, the gable end on the A side is the, the real indicator of how much progress is being made. You've got a nice looking fire coming out of that vent hole but you can see from the lack of push at the front of the building that it really doesn't have the energy it used to have. Smoke pushing from the side of the building down low. Yeah, we're starting to fill some of that. This is probably a balloon built building. We're starting to you got so much pressure in that in the nee wall space is actually pushing cuz there's no way this would've migrated down and across but it's filling those. Vertical shafts. And, And it's occasional. So it's not, it's not. It's got enough pressure up in that knee wall to push them down into those, stud spaces. Cuz there's no, there's no fire barriers to speak of in any of these walls. They pretty much run from what here would be the water table line, top of the basement wall, which is brick. Clear through up into the into the attic space. So this is parta why basement fires in these buildings get problematic once they get into that wall or up into the pipe chase they run right up to the top of that attic. You know, you can get yourself in trouble thinking you've got an attic fire and it's really in the basement. Chief Milwaukee Fire Department, Mark, what does this mean for the Milwaukee Fire Department and your guys getting to hot this kind of event? You know, it's really a big deal, number one it is an honor, but number two you all being right down the road, and to come up and... Work with us on some you know, some really good scientific reasearch that hop, hopefully will save some lives in the fire service, and how we look at fire and how we attack fire. You know, I think it's a really big deal and, and, and we're, we're thrilled. We're lucky we have, you know, Battalion Chief Rodin who works with the folks down at Lou, UL and on their board, and that, that he would hook us up. And we feel real fortunate and, and glad to help, and and honored really to be part of the these studies with Steve and the group. So looking, looking at this particular fire this is a bread and butter event for you guys. Yes. Your, your towns populated with thousands upon thousands [CROSSTALK] is this correct? Yes, yes. All right. So this is really beneficial in terms of planning and scenario [INAUDIBLE] Oh yes it is. I think it is. And, as, as, as we're talking as Steve Kurt was talking before. Just the fact that, that the guys who usually go in these in a matter of moments are standing outside kind of watching the fire and, and how it's working and, you know and I think that when we get the data it will kinda surprise us on how the fire moves and how hot it is and, and, you know, how important it is that. We use the research so our tactics and strategies get a little bit better. Keep our firefighters safe above all us. We're able to grab Chris Hasbrook and Chris is really responsible for bringing UL back into the fight and Chris, I can't thank you enough for doing it and you're senior vice president of international. Tearing up Bobby [CROSSTALK] manager. Responsible for, [UNKNOWN] for everything building, fire, life, safety, and security related. [UNKNOWN] So, [UNKNOWN] is your guys. This is, this is what you're doing with [UNKNOWN] and contributing to the fire service so, I'm gonna walk around you. We get [CROSSTALK] in the background. Yep. And, and get some of the action. Tell us, [UNKNOWN] talking to me. Talk to you huh? Why does. Why does UL wanna do this? And what, what's your goal here? And, how do you think it's going? I think it's going well to answer beginning, first, last question first. You know, the reason we do this is really to bring, safety science to the street. And, I was telling some guys earlier today, you know, we could do this all day in a laboratory but without people. Like fire service leadership we have here in Milwaukie coming to the plate and working with us there's no point in doing it. If we can't get this digestible and out to the fire fighting masses, then there's no point in doing it. So today we're studying new wall fires and their impact in the fire service and we expect to have a good series of burns up here in the next couple of weeks in Milwaukie and we're just happy to be here. Well what's next with you. I know you'll always be looking at a lot of things and we, we worked at together at [INAUDIBLE] and that was a lot of fun and then we did basements and that was outstanding. We've been looking at the addicts and now we're looking at the knee walls. Now i know you've always got the next plan going. What's next with you out. You know for this. Function that firefighter research would do. And I think it would be positive pressure ventilation and looking at fans. Fans have been a mysterious thing for the fire service, I've been told by my colleagues here at UL. People can't understand why you'd push air into a building, and if you do it wrong, you can hurt people. So, part of what we do here is to take the science, and The funny line that firefighters use, Chris, is Yeah. Some guys go to wind driven fires, some guys cre- Some guys create them, yeah I bet, exactly. And so some of it's really it's, it's, it's creating a baseline of knowledge, and then, providing that fire service for the fire service to begin to use and adopt. And sometimes it's unwinding the things people been taught for decades they thought was right. And to your point, maybe creating fires instead of knocking it down. So, tell me, real quickly so people understand, what's in it for UL? I mean, we know that you have light bulbs and light switches and assemblies and products that have to do with safety. We see it all the time on our caulking, or we see it on different things that we think, the UL tag that's been tested and certified and all that stuff. What's it, what, how do you sell this to your bosses? Cuz this is a lot of expense, this is a lot of energy, this is a lot of man hours. This is a big deal. Sure. And we understand that. So how are, honestly, what, why, why would UL really, why does UL care so much? We appreciate, obviously we appreciate. Sure, yeah. [INAUDIBLE] I'm probably not saying it well but, we appreciate [CROSSTALK] Thanks for your support Bobby. [LAUGH] No we appreciate the heck out of it, but how di-, and you're an amazing guy. How did you, give your superiors, the folks that, the, the, the folks that [UNKNOWN] to, to embrace what you're doing for us. Cuz there's no, there's no ROI on this. Correct. This is. This is really about saving people's lives and making us more effective and efficient. Yeah. And you know, I've had some great advisors here in UL Steve Kirber Bob James, guys who have been on the job for a number of years outside of UL. When I got here, I found that we claimed this great legacy of working with the fire service and about 10 years ago I came. We weren't really doing that, we were testing fire trucks, about as far as we went so, the next thing I looked at was our mission which is helping to create safe living and working environments. Guys like Sean Ducrane have been really helpful in education me to understand that the fire station is the staging ground, and that a burning house- in this case we do in just a few hours, is really the working environment. So. It's the ability to connect those things and bring that to my bosses, and they bought in completely and have been very, very supportive. Some will be here later this week, and some have attended our board of directors includes guys like Dave Paul, Sousa Fire Chief, Jim Shannon, who has just recently retired NFPA. So if they need any extra advice or though at the leadership level,. It was always there and so we're really just happy to be providing knowledge, I think that's the bottom line. Using science to provide knowledge to creat knowledge for the fire service to adopt and we're about enabling the fire service to change behaviors and we'll do the same with other professions as well. You know, construction, working with them and educating people in the construction industry in general. To give them the knowledge and the tools to change their behavior, to create a more safer working environment for themselves. Well, outstanding Chris. Fire service really appreciates what you are doing for us, and we appreciate UL. And I think it's important that people who deserve the credit get it, and certainly you and the leadership of UL. Deserve a tremendous amount of credit for what's going on today. It's been our pleasure Robby. And very briefly, how do you feel about Steve Kerber and Shawn Decrane being keyholders for- It's fantastic. I mean yeah. It's truly fantastic we can't achieve higher. Level of recognition than the Keynoting FTAC in this industry and that we're really proud of them for doing that. And just Shawn is actually a UL fire council member as well as battalion chief in Cleveland fire department, he's been a long time supporter of UL himself, as well as Steve obviously from NIS to now UL. Outstanding, thank you Chris, we'll see you around. Yup, thanks Bobby. So here we are on the top floor of the house we're gonna burn. This is day two. And you can see the room has been set up with experimentation tape. We have a cable hanging here for, for thermal coupling. We have fuel package of a bed. Chair with some plastics on it. A plastic trash can. A chair. We got some of the, men from UL working in here doing some more setup. They've got a couch and a chair. Small table, so you'll be able to see as the fire progresses through here with the [UNKNOWN] thermal coupling steel, we'll be able to determine what the temperatures are hitting and how the different fuel packages are responding. For this particular fire. So we've got a great group of people that that showed up and, are participating in the burns, and they got all the good folks working and, we even have a police officer that showed up who is an arson investigator for the city of Milwaukee and, she's trying to hide here in the corner but You know, cops are not very good at hiding. So, they tend to stand out in a crowd. So why would PD, and it would be pretty cool if the Milwaukee PD is sending you out, is this going to help you in your investigations? Well, it's very interesting to watch fire behavior and see what it does. So we know what it can and can't do when we're doing our origin and cause investigations. And you work very close to [UNKNOWN] Milwaukee Fire Department? I'm a detective with Milwaukee Police. The police department here actually does the fire investigations and the fire department works with us. Oh, outstanding. Outstanding. So. Well we seem to have ignition. Some light smoke coming out of the second floor window. Got hose lines in position. [NOISE] Fire yeah Aerial in the front. [NOISE] I'll throw you temperatures in a second Tom. Okay. They're like 150 200 degrees. Seems to be a little steadier smoke coming out of that second floor window now. You should [CROSSTALK]. Want to note, the interior door is sealed. OK, so in that bedroom right now, these, the only open vent is the window we're looking at. The bedroom door is sealed. And reinforce so that fire won't be able to go through the door into the rest of second floor. Try to isolate it in that bedroom. There's some smoke coming out the front vent, that's closed right now, in the attic space. And I can see some smoke along the top ridge line. We're at the three minute mark now. You can see a little bit of glow at the base of the window. So the positive ignition. Still a little more smoke there. Coming up the top half of the window. A little bit of air pulling in the bottom. So at the front we know we have a little bit of smoke from the attic space so it's definitely filled up inside The attic space. We're at the four minute mark now. Smoke's getting a little bit heavier. [INAUDIBLE] Temperature inside the bedroom's 250 F. [INAUDIBLE] Yeah. All right, again you can see. Tents of smoke coming out the top of the window. Air still pulling in the bottom. Temperature in the bedroom now is 400 degrees farenheit. And there's smoke pushing, light smoke pushing from. Pretty much the ridge line. Not too much out of the soffits now. Well, maybe a little bit more. I start to see some flame in the bottom half of that window. Smoke has a little more velocity. Not much of a wind hitting the building at all, Smoke's going straight up, good column of smoke. What do you say? 800 800 degrees farenheit in the fire room right now. 400 [UNKNOWN]. The knee walls above, showing 400 degrees. Starting to get some licks of flame in the upper level of smoke, in the ceiling level of the bedroom. And the temperature is 1000 degrees F. So now we got some flame coming out the top of the window. Velocity's increasing on the smoke. We've got, good smoke pushing from front to rear. Do you see the soffit there failing? The top of the window. It's allowing more heat and flame to go up... Into the attic space. We've got good smoke pushing from front to rear of the attic along the ridge line and the sophits.We got fire pushing out the window real good now air still pulling in low as it should. And a good volume of smoke pushing out of numerous points along the attic space. They gotta man the line now. They should. So the line is in position. [NOISE] And they're waiting for their cue. 600 degrees. And the new walls are showing 600 degrees F. Obviously the room was past flash over. [NOISE] They're still pulling in low as you can see. Showing 600 degrees peak, in the attic space. Room is fully involved [NOISE] Heavy smoke pushing out of front and rear. [UNKNOWN] points that are closed in the attic right now. The roof is starting to ignite. [NOISE] [INAUDIBLE] The inline is poised and ready to do a quick knock down, they're gonna do a quick knock down of the bedroom. 35 back. We're gonna open up on this in about 30 seconds. All right. Getting ready with the handline. Open up. See how effective the first line coming up the engine. First light coming off the engine, viable tactic to give it a quick knock, the attic is zero visibility from front to rear, 5,4,3,2,1 go There's the line in the window,. [NOISE] About a 10 second shot of water at the ceiling level. Acute angle. [NOISE] Look out [INAUDIBLE] it comes back pretty quick. Now they're gonna lay a stream. Along the soffit from front to rear, knocking out the fire that was heading up into the attic space. You can see th, the power of the stream knocking the soffit out, pretty much along the way. And they went front to rear on that. And now they're gonna see what the temperatures inside the attic space are. We'll get a reading on that in a minute. [CROSSTALK] You see the flame in the bedroom is still active. [NOISE] And the fire's coming back relatively quickly. [NOISE] We'll see how this develops [NOISE] One of the things we might wanna point out here, John, is we're deliberately giving it less water than we normally would. We want the fire to come back so we can try an alternative tactic. That alternative tactic is gonna be open up a monitor that's placed into that knee wall to simulate a crew making it to the third floor, via the interior stairs, opening up the knee wall and hitting the fire that way. So, we deliberately didn't knock this back as far as we would expect a crew to do on the actually fire ground. So the fire's come back. Coming out the window again. At this point we're waiting for the [INAUDIBLE] fire to come back up again. So they're going to give it about another 30 seconds and hit it from the [INAUDIBLE] wall on the interior. There's a pre-positioned line already in position in the attic knee wall space. And that line will get charged. And directly knocked the fire and you all see how that tactic, how effective that is. At this point the fire's gonna come through the sheathing on the side of the house. Up in to soft area. [INAUDIBLE] Seconds In ten they're going to open up that line that's prepositioned at knee wall to see if we have a door only [CROSSTALK] Four, Three, Two One attic door. [NOISE] Attic doors open. Attic door open. Standing by on the attic window. [INAUDIBLE] Alright we're getting ready on the attic window in ten. Now they're about to [UNKNOWN]. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, window. So we've simulated making the interior stairs, that's opening the attic door, you got a window available to you, [CROSSTALK] [UNKNOWN] can take that window. Giving us a little time to simulate breeching a knee wall. Five, four, three, two, one. Knee wall. Knee wall has been breached. Confirmed on the knee wall. Ten seconds for water on the [UNKNOWN] fire. [NOISE] Give me another ten. There you go. Whenever you're ready. Five. Four. Three. Two. One. Blitzfire. This is [INAUDIBLE] Robin let's also knock down the bedroom fire again. Copy. Confirmed on the blitz [INAUDIBLE] So the fifth blitz fire now is a pre-position. Is just charged. Bedroom in five. Four. And now they can. Three, two, one, water. And they're gonna knock the fire down in the bedroom again. [INAUDIBLE] the siding too. Yeah, you can hit the siding. Look at that [INAUDIBLE] Five. Four, three. Comes back quick. Two, one, go ahead. That was only five seconds on the siding. I copy. So you've got a fair amount of fuel. [INAUDIBLE] shut down the blitz fire? It's hard to inspect. Can't completely extinguish that. And that speaks to what we've been saying all along, is that. [UNKNOWN] A fire in the fire room. You can back this stuff up, but you can't completely put it out. You still gotta get inside and finish the job. Fire in the fire room, come back one more time. [UNKNOWN] yeah, both vents are open in front and rear of the attic space. They've got good smoke pushing out of both front and rear. So basically at this point the experiment, the data collection part of this is pretty much over. We wanted to get a look at. How much hitting that fire from the window effected the me waw space, and then we let the fire grow again, and then we wanted to see how well hitting it directly from the me waw from the interior would that compared, and then at this point, we're just trying to get this thing under control, so that we can get another burn out of this in the evening. So for all intention purposes. The experiment, in terms of data collection is over. And remember, I know, we've been filming a lot of this. You know, looking at the room of origin, But the room of origin wasn't our concern. What we were looking at is how does various water application effect. The fire thats already migrated into the niwall space and the rest of the interstitial spaces within the attic all the voids. So that was the data we we're trying to collect we're not so much interested in whats going on in the room of origin.>>If you look at the velocity of smoke at the peak ridge line you can see its pushing pretty good so I would think that theres fire up. Above the ceiling of, of the attic space. Yeah, without a doubt and that's part of what we're trying to do at this point. We wanna try to save this roof for later on. So we're gonna try to pull the rest of that soffit out of there and open up those joist spaces, the rafter spaces to the line we have outside. We know from previous experiments that that's one of the most effective ways, to spread a lotta water on the underside of that roof deck, and stop that migration of fire up into the peak. So we'll get an idea to see how, how well that works here. Obviously this tactic wouldn't look a lot better on a 1 story or a story and a half house. This one's two and a half stories. But you see it's, it's still a possibility. So it's a good amount of fire in the attic space now at least heading in that direction. A lot of fuel up there, there was enough sulfurs and. Yeah there was a [CROSSTALK] fair amount of, we put a fair amount of petroleum, you know plastic products, stuffed animals, stuff like that. Into the knee wall. Typical sort of storage that an occupant would use that space for storage. Old children's toys, things like that. So there's a fair amount of fuel in the knee wall in this experiment compared to the one we did yesterday. Smoke, smoke color is just changing. And is also [UNKNOWN]. There we're starting to see what's exiting the building rear [UNKNOWN] c side window. Is, [UNKNOWN], you know, a lot more push is getting darker, so, all right, so now we're just gonna try to knock this thing back, save some building. We're still gonna measure it, still gonna time it, we're always timing the amount of water, you know, the time we're flowing water He's gonna get a little knock on the con, room and contents first, and then the object here is to have the, the whole stream at the proper angle so it flows right up in between the rafters. Tries to get up to the peak. Trying to get, trying to drive it up to the peak. You see now his angle of attack, he's got a little bit of a angle of attack that's preventing. He'll get it. There he goes. So you really gotta walk with your line. If you just angle the stream you're losing effectiveness. You gotta walk with the line so that the line is driving right up into the roof. And if you'll notice, that heavy push we had in the back of the building now is pretty much gone. We're not flowing any water on the interior of the building. We're trying to flow our water on the concealed spaces, and you can see it had a pretty good effect on the back half of the building. [NOISE] Yeah, they've got to get that if that want to put an end to this, because. That's right where it's made it's entry into the new wall, so. One of the many, many, many Interesting things I've picked up, John, watching this, it's when you're running these experiments, it's really hard to get your fuel just right. You know? You don't want so much fuel that you're gonna lose the building and, and not be able to run another experiment, but you dont' want to under fuel it and have it be unrealistic. And I think we saw between today and yesterday. Yesterday you know yesterday was a lot less fuel and today we upped the fuel a little bit and we might have upped it just one notch higher than we really wanted because its there's a fair amount of fuel up in that attic both in the Still seen [CROSSTALK] And in the walls and in the attic space itself. I still say it's burning up there now. Yeah, you got, see that, what they're trying to knock back here in that room, there was a breach in that ceiling. So, any, any least little bit of fire you have right there where they were heading is going to migrate right back up into that attic. So, now we're going to let, we're done with the experiment part of this. Milwaukee's going to go in and do what we would do on the fire ground and finish the job.