Are people who have “attended” countless training classes more qualified to do their jobs than a firefighter with 20 years on the job but fewer pieces of paper?
Final Results:
YES: 15
YES
NO: 54
NON-COMMITTAL:5
“Yes. While 20 year’s on the job yields plenty of experience, split second decisions are better made by individuals who understand the foe they are up against. No amount of experience can provide the cumulative experience provided in the classroom setting. The classroom provides a head start in a job that requires every advantage a fire fighter can muster for his/her protection and the people we serve.”
Signed,
siberian10…
“Yes. But without experience, all of the training in the world will not prepare you for this work!”
Signed,
TFD141…
“Yes. Formal training is an improvement over on the job learning. On the job learning often involves incorrect methods.”
Signed,
station1a…
“I vote yes: a firefighter can learn much more in a classroom than he can on the the fireground, but no firefighter will learn anything unless he/she wants to. Many more lessons can be provided in a classroom environment, but these lessons must be applied on the fireground.”
Signed,
mckayster30…
“I say yes to a degree. The student will build a tool box of training and experiences from instructors, the things covered in class has usually come from somebody elses experience.”
Signed,
william…
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NO
“No. While it is important to know the basics, the skills learned in a classroom must be mixed with experience from the fireground.”
WFLDFIRE…
“No. Firefighters today have the advantage of modern personal protective equipment, apparatus and the most advanced firefighting tools available i.e. TICs. However, what todays firefighters lack the most and yesterday’s
firefighter had more of was fire sense and fortitude. No doubt there are great firefighters out there all across America. In fact many of these firefigting greats left us on Sept. 11, 2001. Todays firefighter is consumed and bombarded with the importance of changing rolls to a Fire/Medic gone crazy culture. Henceforth, these well meaning firefighters are spending the majority of their training hours either acheiving or keeping their
medical credentials. Also todays enviroment as far as Hazmat and the threat of continued terrorism in this country has forever changed the roll and focus of todays fire service leadership. It is no longer acceptable to many in the fire service community to just be a great firefighter. In fact that definition is lost to many of todays leaders.”
Signed,
xcml0610x…
“I think real unknowns are better at keeping the senses sharp and classroom gives one the knowledge to draw upon. So I guess I would say no.”
Signed,
eaterris…
“No. Ability to use a skill in a classroom does not guarantee the ability to use it in the field.”
Signed,
christopher…
“This question is great. Who trains the trainers anyway? With so few actual events going on, what good is a piece of paper to fall back on. Give me the guy with 20 years experience. Would anyone really want the fully certified “paperwork” rookie chief over the experienced chief with fewer certificates hanging on his office walls?”
Signed,
LT315…
“No. It’s always good to have a classroom foundation, however, nothing beats experience.”
Signed,
MED5690…
“No. I have dealt with far too many people who think they can do something but find out they are not capable due to either physical or mental problems. The fire ground is no place to find out you can’t perform–people are counting on us.”
Signed,
Firemanjim…
“No. Experience counts. When you get to the basics of this job, it comes down to a simple plan that everybody wants to overthink, or say that it is more than that. You have to put the Wet stuff on the Hot stuff…quickly. If you have an educated idiot running the scene that doesn’t know a pike pole from his elbow without looking in the fire essentials book, not only is your scene not “Safe”, it’s also like putting a band-aid on a broken leg…it doesn’t do any good. It looks pretty and all, but it’s pretty much useless…just like most of the pieces of paper that the “Educated” Firefighters among us like to pull out of little folders just so we can stand in awe of them, but it does them little (actually NO GOOD) good when it all hits the fan.”
Signed,
dwatson…
“A lot depends on the actual experience of the 20 year person, but attending classes alone does not qualify as experience on the job.”
Signed,
B2400…
“No. But a balance must be defined!”
Signed,
wdougher…
“No. As a past vollie of 10+ years and current career firefighter of 5 years, I’ve come across way too many firefighters/officers with tons and tons of certifications, patches, and other papers that claim to know it all. They will stand up in their clean white coats, sit down at their large oak desks or step out of their $42,000 fully loaded Blazer and speak volumes of pre-written facts. Unfortunately, for all who have had to deal with these people, they haven’t ever been enrolled in a class called ‘Common Sense’.
I will take the general ‘classroom’ knowledge and experience of a 22 year veteran firefighter who has the common sense and the know-how of when to and where to use or apply such knowledge ANY DAY over the 22 year veteran firefighter who has no common sense and does things ‘by the book’ because it’s supposed to be done ‘by the book’ because the ‘book’ says so.
By the way, I have a 4 year degree in education. Another one of those paper waving know-it-alls.”
Signed,
KevoutMag…
“No. Some things you can only learn through years on the front lines. A lot of people are great in the books but can’t take what’s in their heads and use it in real life.”
Signed,
Esps640…
“No. You can read every book on a particular subject but it can’t compare to experience.”
Signed,
jlmccabe…
“No. You must be able to stretch the hoselines and throw the ladders up prior to learning the books.”
Signed,
djbristow
“No. They are not. The best would have a combination of both education so others’ mistakes will not be repeated, and time on the job so you know what
works and what does not. If we are to defeat our enemy we must know our enemy. We should not favor one over the other because both are necessary to do
the job safely and effectively in the environment we work in today. We should stress a mix of both philosophies; if we come up against something we didn’t cover in class, we can think the problem through with our experience and education. I have 30 years experience on the job and hold a number of degrees
from higher educational institutions and will never stop learning something new about this job we do. We do not operate in a static environment; as they say, “things change.” I offer this example: you went to drill school where they showed you the proper way to vent a roof but the first time you had do it where “the bullets are real” was very different. The types of roof
construction has been ever evolving so new hazards are showing up and to be safe we must read up (study) on these things to keep us and our fellow firefighters safe. Be well and keep out of harm’s way!”
Signed,
Asstchiefduke…
“Absolutely not!!!!!!!!!!!! Anybody can read a book, watch a video, and listen to a speaker, but it can’t replace good old hands-on experience.”
Signed,
FFD25…
“No. Just because you have a paper on the wall does not endorse your physical capabilities. There are many people who can learn from a book but cannot apply what they have seen in writing. It takes not only classroom skills but experience, and that ultimately will be the factor that decides your success.
There are those who expect just because they have every certification known to man that they have the right to progress ahead of everyone else though they have never applied what they have learned.
The President isn’t president just because he went to school.”
Signed,
bill_mill_mac…
“No. Just because you sat in a classroom, took up space, and got the certificate, does not mean you know what you’re doing. We all know it’s experience that counts. No fire was ever textbook. Things happen that they don’t show you in a book. Way too many people think they know just becase they have a class cert. Now throw a wrench in it and see if they know. You can’t make up experience.”
Signed,
Boonjohn…
“Classroom education is important, but it CAN NOT take the place of experience. With this being said, the burning question on experience needs to revolve around whether the firefighter with 20 years of experience has truly 20 years of experience or one year of experience repeated 20 times.
As for the question regarding classroom training — can the firefighter who has completed the education and has the certificate truly produce what the paper says he/she can. I have witnessed many firefighters who have the ability to produce a “ton” of paper, but are completely useless on the fireground since they have the book knowledge, yet have NO experience or have not figured out how to apply the practical skills they learned in the classroom to real life situations.”
Signed,
kingvfd…
“No if the classes are merely attendance classes.”
Signed,
larry_…
“No. I don’t think this is a black or white question. I’m sure in some instances you will find firefighters on either side of this question.”
Signed,
tkfaull…
“No. From what I can tell, the people who have the most classes tend to be more by the book, not by reality. And while the book is a good guide, it should not be followed completely. You need to know how to adjust to the situation. One chief who I know and have come to respect to the highest said it to me best, he said, “Ya know what, kid? I have never once seen a book put out a fire!” Also, people who have all the classes think that they know it all so they tend to ignore the seasoned veteran who I’m willing to bet can give you better tips on how to fight fire and survive fire then any book ever will. Some books are very valuable too however, particularly the ones written by the seasoned veterans who did the job and write the book like it should be, real-life-based!”
Signed,
ANT90683…
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NON-COMMITTAL
“It all depends on the person. I know a number of people in the fire service who are extremely book smart, but possess very little practicle or “on the job” experience. Yet these people will engage in debates with older members of my department who stand on the “we never did it that way when I first joined” platform. Firefighting today is so far removed from the “old days”, but the basic premise remains the same. You need to put the wet stuff on the red stuff. It just seems as though the parameters of the job have widened beyond the margins that newer members attend more classes than actually go out and practice the basic and practical aspects of being in the fire service.”
Signed,
SH7043…
“Rewrite the question in the opposite manner. Do firefighters with 20 years on the job do a better job than a firefighter with tons of training?
Remember, don’t be confused with ‘Experience’ vs ‘Time-on’. Personnel with 20 years on the job may have responded to only 1000 calls, depending the station call load. Personnel with 2 years on the job might have responded to 5000 calls. Who has more experience?”
Signed,
RPalacios…
“It’s like trying to balance a checking account without a math course. Of course experience is important. There are too many variations not to have field experience to clearly identify appropriate tactics. However, the classroom provides insight from a number of veteran firefighters who have encountered more situations than can probably be encountered in the field in the same time frame.”
Signed,
strout…
“It isn’t that easy. With the number of fires down, firefighters and fire officers must rely on education and practical experience to be effective. Realistic (as real as they can be) simulation coupled with the latest professional education is a must. Experience is important, but with the number of experienced personnel leaving the service for different reasons, the only other option is education. Anyone can ‘attend’ a class, if they get anything out of it is up to the instructor and the student. Additionally, 20 years on the job may be someone who has just repeated the last fourteen years without upgrading their skills!”
Signed,
dfomko…
“This is not a yes or no question. True experience is a good teacher, but it usally comes from making mistakes–sometimes very costly ones. However, one who has all the classroom and book knowledge and no real life experience will not have the knowledge that one can only get by experience. The best scenario is to use the 20 year veteran to teach in the classroom to get a balance between book knowledge and real life.”
Signed,
kshelley…
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